how about this mana point version?

[Pyrex]

All right. But my basic math is still off. Would it be 4x3 for 3 3rd level spell casters? Because if its 1+spell level, a 3rd would cost four. So in the example, it would take 12 points, leaving 10 points left?

---Rusty

Because EvilBob specifically said he wanted Sorcerers to be SpellLevel mana (i.e. 3x3), not SpellLevel+1 (i.e. 4x3)

Under EvilBob's proposal, Wizards would indeed be SpellLevel+1 mana (4x3), but in my example I used a Sorcerer

(apologies for the excessive use of bolding, I'm trying to be very clear.)

 

[DungeonMaester]

Because EvilBob specifically said he wanted Sorcerers to be SpellLevel mana (i.e. 3x3), not SpellLevel+1 (i.e. 4x3)

Under EvilBob's proposal, Wizards would indeed be SpellLevel+1 mana (4x3), but in my example I used a Sorcerer

(apologies for the excessive use of bolding, I'm trying to be very clear.)

All right. I think I get it now.

1) the extra +1 for wizards to Sorcs I tihnk is a bad idea. I think the number of spells per days off sets the reason for this rule. Don't forget about other classes like Wu Jen and War mages too.

2) In my styem, something I guess I should of post was that prepared spell casters (Sorc and Wizards) learn each one of there spell's once, and after casting it can spend 1 mana pool point to not forget it. This long replaced the normal 'Prepare spells' so I forgot that when I first posted.

---Rusty

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

Mind another option?

I've been using variations of Spellpoint(Mana) systems for a while. Not all are created equal obviously. Some of mine have been just over-the-top others suffered from lack of power. Right now I'm still experimenting with a new one that has yet to see play.

Goes like this...

Mana System
*Casters gain caster level and spells as normal
*Mana Pool is total spellcasting power reserve
*Mana Pool=(caster level+attribute bonus)x4
This feels like it may still need some adjustment and it boosts the relative staying power of low-level casters
*Mana Regen is how many Mana points the caster recovers in a unit of time. Till now I've had Mana regenerate hourly but with some adjustment this could cover a per encounter scale.
*Mana Regen=(caster level+attribute bonus)/time unit
*0 level spells(cantrips)=at will spell-like abilities no Mana cost for them
*Mana Cost of Spell=Level of Spell, spells still autoscale with CL
*Mana Cost of Metamagic(Mana Points)=Lvl increase of normal use (but metamagic can be aplied to spells sontaneously)
*Caster can not boost a spell's Mana Cost higher than the highest level of spell they can cast.
*No preparation beforehand may spontaneously cast any spell they know using available Mana Points. For Divine Magic this requires that Cleric use the Archivist feature Prayerbook like a wizard's spell book instead of knowing entire list.

 

[evilbob]

Pyrex: thanks for the responses. And yes, you were interpreting my words correctly.

Essentially, I think we may have to resolve it to playtesting and/or agree to disagree, because I believe that giving a caster the ability to cast more high level spells at the cost of casting a total number of spells overall is ok. It seems perfectly fair to me to give up casting 3 or 4 burning hands in favor of one fireball. Sorcerers - to continue to use this one class as an example - are all about burst damage (not area-of-effect necessarily, but high damage output per round), and giving them more fireballs to throw (or not) gives them more options. Other spontaneous casters generally follow suit. And giving a wizard the ability to cast anything he knows? That's darn near priceless.

Also, I do have to take issue with the 17th level wizard with 19 Int. It's just not a fair counter-example for the problem; a 17th level wizard, even a pretty poor one, will most likely have over 24 Int - which would be a significant gain in mana points. The way I calculated examples for this system myself were: level 1 with 16 in stat, level 6 with 18 in stat, level 10 with 22 in stat, level 17 (or 18) with 24 in stat, level 20 with 26 in stat. These numbers are really not unreasonable, and they show a better picture. (In fact, min/maxers will have closer to 30+ by level 20.) And I will certainly admit that this system does give a greater emphasis on +stat items to get those extra spells - it's just part of how it works.

And, most importantly, it's exceedingly difficult to give the sorcerer any more spell points without making the system unbalanced. If a sorcerer is allowed to cast (for example) 10 level 9 spells at level 17, who cares how many level 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, or 7 spells he can cast? He's just gated in 10 angels or rained down meteor swarms for a full minute. He wins.

It's a hard line to draw, I admit - but I still think it's balanced.

All that said:

What really needs to be developed - and I just can't think of a good way to do this without getting more complex than it needs to be - is to come up with a system that allows low-level spells to cost less when higher level spells are available. Something along the lines of: when you are able to cast 5th level spells, 1st level spell costs drop by 1/2. This would allow folks to continue to spam the "tiny" spells while not giving them access to too many "big" spells. If someone could come up with a smooth system for doing this, it would help solve your issue while maintaining mine. How's this for a starting point, using my system's rules above:

Each time a caster has access to a higher spell level, all spells 3 levels lower or less cost 1 mana point fewer to cast, to a minimum of 1 point. For example, once a wizard is able to cast 4th level spells, all 1st level spells cost 1 point. Zero-level spells do not change because they already cost just 1 point. When the same wizard is able to cast 8th level spells, 5th level spells will cost 5 points (1 fewer), 4th level spells will cost 3 points (2 fewer), and zero through 3rd level spells will cost 1 point (3rd level spells are 3 fewer, and the rest were all just 1 point by then). These point reductions do not affect the base cost of adding metamagic to spells, but they would apply to the final cost of a spell affected by metamagic. For example, an 18th level sorcerer could cast an empowered scorching ray for 1 mana point (2 points + 2 normally, then adjusted downward as all other 4th level spells).

By this rule, when a wizard is level 17, 4th level spells are just 2 points - and only 1 point for the sorcerer. This may be TOO generous (I've done scant few calculations), but it's starting out in the right direction, I think... (It's also starting to get pretty confusing, especially with metamagic...)

(However, I still like the idea of "small pool + rapid regen" idea... perhaps another thread is in order... )


HeavenShallBurn: One pitfall that needs to be avoided when making mana point systems is to remember that zero-level spells cannot cost nothing; if this is the case, then a cure minor-casting cleric will simply spend 10 minutes to heal a party completely after each battle, and no one would ever buy a torch again if they had a wizard (or cleric) in their party with a light spell.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

HeavenShallBurn: One pitfall that needs to be avoided when making mana point systems is to remember that zero-level spells cannot cost nothing; if this is the case, then a cure minor-casting cleric will simply spend 10 minutes to heal a party completely after each battle, and no one would ever buy a torch again if they had a wizard (or cleric) in their party with a light spell.

I'll just chalk it up to style preference, no big deal. I've never seen what the fuss was with torches when in two levels you have eternal flame anyway, and if a cleric spams cure minor it just means I get to stick that many more encounters on them. But I generally go for a higher than core power and magic level across the board so it's never bothered me. I mean, it's fantasy be fantastic I get enough reality in the real world.

[sblock]if the Cure Minor Wounds spell really bugs you dump it so the lowest is Cure Light Wounds at 1st level. Or get rid of the Cure cantrip move the name of all of the Cure spells down one notch and add a new one between Cure Critical and Heal[/sblock]

 

[Pyrex]

Also, I do have to take issue with the 17th level wizard with 19 Int...In fact, min/maxers will have closer to 30+ by level 20

The difference between a 19 Int and a 30 Int (+4 vs +10) is 14 mana points; which gives a 17th level caster 52 mana instead of 38.

Which means instead of 4/6/6/5/5/5/5/4/3/2 (17th level spells plus Int 30 bonus) spells, he runs out of mana after 0/0/0/0/1/0/0/3/2/2. Or, if he completely maxes out the top end, 0/1/0/0/0/0/0/0/0/5.

Which means he still gets *less* high level spells per day than standard. And all it takes is a small handful of low-level spells to kick him back down to 2-3 9th level spells, still with no 6th-8th level spells.

This is not a workable amount of spells for a 17th level wizard to be expending over the course of a day of adventuring. Mystra help him if he wants to Quicken anything. He'll go from full to out-of-spells in less than three rounds.

 

[Pyrex]

Wait, let me try something else. What if I show that not only can your spell-point caster not really cast any more high level spells, (shown above), but that he can't cast any more low-level spells either?

As I posted above a 17th level wizard with 30Int has 4/6/6/5/5/5/5/4/3/2 0->9th level spell slots for a total of 52 mana.

Trying to match that bottom-up instead of top-down he can cast

4/6/6/4/0/0/0/0 with two mana remaining.

Under your system, your spell-point wizard can't even make it through his expected allotment of 0 through 3rd level spells before running dry.

Versatility is good, but you're pricing it far too high.

With a level-spread (i.e., not taking the edge case of either all 1st or all 9th level spells) your caster doesn't have the gas to manage *half* the spellcasting potential of the PHB wizard.

(ok, rant over, I'm done. From here you can consider me 'agreed in disagreement' if I've failed to convince you )

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

This is not a workable amount of spells for a 17th level wizard to be expending over the course of a day of adventuring. Mystra help him if he wants to Quicken anything. He'll go from full to out-of-spells in less than three rounds.

I tend to agree with you on that point. With spellpoint systems many people decrease the number of spellpoints too much. Basically if you want to keep a rouhgly core power curve for amount of magic used by total levels of spells you end up with a system that gives you about 200-300 spellpoints by 20th level.

The other solution, and one I'd prefer to move toward though I'm still having trouble is working a much faster system. Reduce the pool to a significantly smaller level but have the pool recharge much more quickly. Something where the caster's pool can be expended in a single or few intense combat but recharges very quickly to compensate.

 

[evilbob]

Which means instead of 4/6/6/5/5/5/5/4/3/2 (17th level spells plus Int 30 bonus) ... 0/1/0/0/0/0/0/0/0/5.

Yup - and my argument is still simply: 5 ninth level spells. In my system, I'm saying 3 spontaneously cast ninth level spells cast from a wizard's spell book are worth 4/6/6/5/5/5/5/4/3/0.

As for the "bottom up" approach, again my response is simply: spontaneously cast from a wizard's spell book that contains (especially at high levels) potentially any low level spell. (And with the new idea I posted above, it would be more than you've shown: 52 mana would yield 4/6/6/5/5/5/1/0/0/0 - fairly close to the original total, and again, all spontaneously cast.)

A wizard's main strength is versitility. Increasing this strength to nigh limitless potential requires quite a drawback. In this case, it is losing lots of spells.

I'm not trying to say that this system will allow one to cast the same number of spells, or even close to the same number. As you can see, you give up a LOT of spellcasting potential as you gain even greater versatility. My argument is that it is simply worth it. Sure, you only have a handful of spells - but you have exactly the handful you need, every time.


All that being said, I completely understand your argument that it is simply too little. And honestly, that may be true - I think it would take playtesting to assert it either way. I think this system may actually "even out" the wizard's power curve: he's more powerful at low levels and possibly less powerful at very high levels, which makes him closer in his power curve to the other DnD classes. And it would change part of how a wizard works, since part of the "fun" for some is the preparation and strategy. But I still think that given a wizard in particular, who can - more than anyone - pick his battles, increasing his versatility only makes him stronger.

As a counter-point, I would suggest applying the "cost = spell level" formula and seeing if that seems more reasonable to you. The main problem, however, of "so what do we do with spontaneous casters" becomes even more problematic if you can't really subtract much more from the overall cost of spells.

 

[evilbob]

The other solution, and one I'd prefer to move toward though I'm still having trouble is working a much faster system. Reduce the pool to a significantly smaller level but have the pool recharge much more quickly. Something where the caster's pool can be expended in a single or few intense combat but recharges very quickly to compensate.

This is exactly what I meant above by "like a lot of the newer Final Fantasy games" - something that is smaller, more intense, but recharges quickly. I agree that this could be very interesting. However, one of the main drawbacks is that while this suits a sorcerer perfectly, it ends up being somewhat abusable by a wizard, who could simply cast many different high-level spells over a long time period without losing much mana. This kind of system would almost require shorter durations for all spells.

Edit: Hmm... Actually, maybe this is secretly the solution to the problem? Combining both of these ideas into one system. Perhaps the secret to solving "what to do with spontaneous casters" is "let them recharge quickly." Maybe something along the lines of... sorcerers must pay [3 x spell level] mana points to cast a spell, but they regenerate spell points at a rate of 1 / round? Something along those lines... something that doesn't need to be kept track of after a battle ("ok, battle's done, you're fully charged again") but something that would keep their limits within the bounds of reason...