how about this mana point version?

[evilbob]

Ok, I just thought of a mostly easy solution... Which pretty much just marries this system to Fibonacci completely. Your mana pool on even numbers is (caster level / 2's Fibonacci sequence number, using the same sequence as the spell level cost) * 2. (On odd numbers, we just pick a nice filler that is less than or equal to halfway to the next level, so that you're always getting the same or more points each level.) So a level 6 sorc has 4 (or 3) * 2 = 8 mana (or 6).

Then, you add points based on your ability score... except that this part gets tricky. It mostly works just like the PHB's chart, where you get x points for each y level spell you would normally gain - but you divide the total by 4 and round down. So, our level 6 friend with 18 in CHA gets 1 bonus 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spell - thus gaining 1 + 2 + 4 (or 3) = 7 (or 6) points. Divide that by 4, and you get 1 (always rounding down), which leaves us with +1 point. Total = 9 (or 7). More calculations are (using just the "Two" sequence, since the math should work closely either way):
Level 2: 1 * 2 = 2 + ((1 = 1) / 4 = 0) = 2
Level 6: 4 * 2 = 8 + ((1 + 2 + 4) / 4 = 1)) = 9
Level 10: 10 * 2 = 20 + ((2 + 4 + 4 + 6 + 10 = 24) / 4 = 6) = 26
Level 14: 25 * 2 = 50 + ((2 + 4 + 8 + 6 + 10 + 15 + 25 = 70) / 4 = 17) = 67
Level 18: 65 * 2 = 130 + ((2 + 4 + 8 + 6 + 10 + 15 + 25 = 70) / 4 = 17) = 147

Why does dividing the bonus number by 4 work? I have no idea. But it really seems to. (Probably cause I said "2.25" - or 2 and 1/4.) The most interesting thing is that when you use the "Two" sequence, which has a slightly higher cost in the middle-level spells, you gain slightly more mana points in the middle levels. But, it evens out again in the end.

So, the final un-modified number for each level would be, with example fillers, and the estimated stat bonus and estimated totals:

Sorc lvl   pool (Two) stat bonus est. total
1          1          0          1
2          2          0          2
3          3          0          3
4          4          0          4
5          6          0          6
6          8          1          9
7          10         1          11
8          12         3          15
9          15         3          18
10         20         6          26
11         24         6          30
12         30         9          39
13         38         9          47
14         50         17         67
15         64         17         81
16         80         17         97
17         100        17         117
18         130        17         147
19         165        27         192
20         210        27         237

Edit: As for the regen rate... I'm starting to like 1 point / round per 5 levels. So you get:
lvl 1 = 1/round
lvl 5 = 2/round
lvl 10 = 3/round
lvl 15 = 4/round
lvl 20 = 5/round
Seems to work well. It still takes less than 5 minutes to completely recharge a fully loaded level 20 character, and you'll never get enough in one battle to shoot another very high level spell. Then again, if nothing else is linear, this probably shouldn't be, either...

Maybe something like another sequence?
lvl 1 = 1/round
lvl 7 = 2/round
lvl 12 = 4/round
lvl 16 = 6/round
lvl 20 = 10/round
This just gets dangerous when you realize that 10/round means "a lvl 5 spell every 12 seconds."

Another edit: If zero-level spells cost nothing, we should specify you still can't regen while casting them. That's probably enough "cost" in and of itself during battle.

Another random thought: If some casters never run out of mana, then this should change the makeup of the world... Either sorcs are super-rare, or magic -is- the technology of the land, and you see it constantly.

 

[Pyrex]

The only thing I worry about is levels 1 to 4 or so. At those levels, it might be a problem. ...Maybe. (Also, I'm not willing to conceed this point on prepared casters. Anyone who doesn't regen needs to have zero level spells cost something, or as I like to say, cure minor breaks the game.)

Past level 2 unlimited Cure Minor doesn't really break the game anyway. By that time a party generally has copious amounts of out-of-combat healing proved by cheap Cure Light wands anyway.

2) See, and here's where I say that from a "good design" standpoint, rounding helps a ton. People can add and subtract multiples of 5 in their head really easily. It's a whole lot harder to do any old number. Without rounding, calculators become (almost) a necessity. With rounding, you can probably handle it as easily as anything else. Also, rounded numbers are easier to remember.

Players have been subtracting arbitrary amounts of damage from arbritrary numbers of HP since D&D began; and have been doing it for Psionic Power Points for nearly as long. I don't think asking them to do it for spell points is that onerous.

Level    Cost   Only 8  Two Breaks
   0        0   0       0
   1        1   1       1
   2        2   2       2
   3        3   3       4
   4        5   5       6
   5       10   10      10
   6       15   15      15
   7       20   25      25
   8       35   40      40
   9       55   65      65

Hmm. The first column doesn't really work for me as there are too many spell levels where each level cost 5 more than the last. IMO, each successive spell level should get more expensive faster than the previous one, which is why I like the straight-up Fib sequence.

The third one isn't bad though.

 

[Pyrex]

Hmm, I think your 'bonus spells' mechanic is needlessly complex, so I'm going to attempt to simplify.

Also, given that trading in one top-level spell now gives back quite a few lower-level spells I think I want to put the stake in the ground that your base manapool at even levels is exactly enough to cast your top-level spell twice; which is exactly what your "Pool(two)" column is.

Now for the simplification of bonus spells.

Instead of trying to add-in and divide-out all the bonus spells you get for a high stat, it seems intuitively obvious to me that the easy solution is just to give enough bonus points to cast the top level bonus spell your stat would allow. Sure, you could potentiall be missing out on additional low-level spells, but I think the caster has plenty of those already; and higher Cha still gives you better save DC's, so I don't think I'll lose any sleep over it...

i.e., a Sor 6 with an 16+ Cha gets 4pts.

A Sor 12 with an 18(+4) Cha gets 6 pts to cast his bonus 4th level spell. The same Sor 12 with a 22(+6) [or higher] Cha gets 15 pts to cast his bonus 6th level spell.

Done.

 

[Pyrex]

So the more I think about it the less I like the idea of a Sor starting (and likely ending) each combat with 3x back-to-back top-level casts.

In fact, I think I'm going to go so far as to say I don't want to see Sor getting a 3rd top-level cast in combat pretty much ever, regardless of how high their Cha may be. Only getting two per combat is plenty fair trade for potentially being able to cast a couple dozen of them in a day.

Instead of BaseMana=2*Fib(CL*0.5), how about BaseMana=Fib(1+(CL*0.5)).

In other words, instead of two top-level, you get a Top and a Top-1.
Ex: Sor 12 gets 25 base mana, enough for a 6th level cast and a 5th level cast. His Cha will most likely get him enough for an additional 6th level cast for a total of 2x 6th, 1x 5th. (or a large assortment of lower level spells).

Re: Regen:
I'd like to see a slower regen rate. "Fast" regen really doesn't need to be any faster than replenishing your full manapool in 30min->1hr.

 

[evilbob]

Past level 2 unlimited Cure Minor doesn't really break the game anyway. By that time a party generally has copious amounts of out-of-combat healing proved by cheap Cure Light wands anyway.

I still have to disagree: out-of-combat healing, even at high levels still costs something, even if it's only a little bit. There's still a gold, or resource, or time expenditure in RP to find the *bleeping* store to buy the things, and all of that leads ultimately to the players not using this resource with complete abandon. Unlimited cure minors costs nothing, and significantly changes things because players could start every battle with full health. For a fighter, she needs nothing else. I would imagine many warrior-classes single-dipping cleric for the tremendous benefit of fighting an infinitely large number of battles per day. No, I have to stick with my belief that this would break things. Banning the spell is not a solution without merrit, though.

Players have been subtracting arbitrary amounts of damage from arbritrary numbers of HP since D&D began; and have been doing it for Psionic Power Points for nearly as long. I don't think asking them to do it for spell points is that onerous.

This is a very good argument, and one I have thought about. I still think it's easier to plan and execute spell-casting without a calculator if the numbers you're subtracting are basically round - especially the higher numbers, which will make larger impacts in your mana pool.

IMO, each successive spell level should get more expensive faster than the previous one, which is why I like the straight-up Fib sequence.

You're right; I agree.

The third one isn't bad though.

Yeah. It's my favorite.

Hmm, I think your 'bonus spells' mechanic is needlessly complex

You're right. It needs something else.

As for your idea, I hate to say it but in case you can't tell I'm a real "chart" fanatic. It's hard for me to compare without the numbers all laid out. So I'm going to try to chart your plan and see if I understand it...


Re:Re:Regen: I agree that slower regen is good, but here's my thought: at low levels, if the regen is at all fast, people will be upset that at higher levels they cannot gain their mana back as quickly. Having -more- mana will basically hurt you, and that can't be the way it works. You basically can't set something up where it works in a few rounds at level 1 and thirty minutes at level 20. At the same time, it gets REALLY hard to find a good way to balance that drastic increase in mana pool without going REALLY high with the numbers, or get past the point where folks can cast level 4 spells every other round at some point.

It might be better to have a multi-round rule for all levels... That way, it'd be hard to regen during combat, but you could still get it all back within 10 minutes or so. Oh - and I'd also like for regen to be possible completely within 10 minutes; anything longer than this and you kinda start needing to "track" how long folks are just waiting around for the sorc to power up, and then DMs start making random encounter rolls, and it just goes downhill from there. Plus, that's also about how long some of the short-term buffs last, so it kinda makes you recast.

 

[evilbob]

Here's your chart:

Sorc lvl   pool (Two) stat bonus est. total
1          1          1          2
2          2          1          3
3          3          1          4
4          4          2          6
5          5          2          7
6          6          4          10
7          8          4          12
8          10         6          16
9          12         6          18
10         15         10         25
11         19         10         29
12         25         13         38
13         32         13         45
14         40         25         65
15         52         25         77
16         65         25         90
17         80         25         105
18         105        25         130
19         135        40         175
20         170        40         210

Interestingly enough, it's pretty similar to the one I made, as far as final totals go. You get a little more early on and a little less later on, but otherwise it's almost dead-on.

Also, while I agree that the "bonus spells" thing needs work, this solution is also kinda handicapped because you end up with not much incentive to gain extra stats until you can use them... Most of this chart saw this character's high CHA stat go to waste. I still think it'd be better to account for the possibility of getting a few more lower spells in there... Somehow...

Edit: Also note that my "bonus spell" solution was worse in this regard.

Also, one thing I like: when you reach level 20, you can cast three 9th level spells with a high enough stat mod. I think level 20 deserves something at least that good.

 

[evilbob]

Ok, here's my new regen idea, specifically for the totals as listed in the previous post (other totals may need adjustments):
--> lvl 1 = 1 / 5 rounds
--> lvl 5 = 1/round
--> lvl 10 = 2/round
--> lvl 14 = 3/round
--> lvl 17 = 5/round
--> lvl 19 = 8/round

The things I like about it are:
- you never have to wait more than 3 minutes to regen completely
- you almost always have to wait between 1 minute and 3 minutes to regen completely
- the points at which you can "shoot a level X spell every other round" seem appropriate, especially since the gain is staggered differently than the spell point cost, which means you will often have just more than enough to cast one type but not enough to cast a higher level
- you almost always have to wait at least 3 rounds (of not casting) to cast your highest level spell, but this is always impossible for 8th and 9th level spells
- lots of bonuses on odd levels make for a happy level up process
- it, too is fibonacci!

Things I don't like:
- I had to put the last "level up" on the 19th level, which I'd rather have on 20. I'd like to have a bonus for 20, but the only number that seems to make sense would be 10, and that's too much (5th level spell every other round). 9 just makes it seem like a consolation prize.
- nothing like any other DnD system (but I don't think you can avoid that); especially in that it levels up more often toward the end (again, can't avoid)

 

[Pyrex]

Regen:
There are two different values that need to be taken into consideration.

1) Absolute rate of regeneration. i.e.; how long does it take to recover a 1st level spell.

2) Percentage rate of regeneration. i.e.; how long does it take to recover my entire mana pool.

The absolute rate obviously should get faster.

Ideally, the percentage rate should remain constant (i.e., it always takes the same amount of time to go from empty to full).

The only way to keep percentage rate constant is to base regen directly off of the base mana pool, but that leads to ugly tracking of fractions.

So we have a couple options:
1) Declare that there is no incremental regen and that regen just straight-up takes 10min of downtime.
Upside: Percentage rate is completely constant.
Downside: It's a lame hack.

2) Try to plot a scaling regeneration rate that maps 100 rounds for 170 mana at 20th level.
-> The clear indication is that Mana Regen thereby caps at 2mana/round @ 20th.
-> Even though it results in an actual *decrease* in percentage rate, I think it's ok to increase the absolute rate a little faster than depicted by the mana point curve as follows:

L  1:  1 mana / 100 rounds
L  5:  1 mana /  20 rounds
L 10:  1 mana /   5 round
L 15:  1 mana /   1 round 
L 20:  2 mana /   1 round

Thereby every five levels (except for at the top) your absolute regen rate increases by 5x, your percentage rate starts off at 10min, and arrives back at ~10min @ 20th level.

Also, while I agree that the "bonus spells" thing needs work, this solution is also kinda handicapped because you end up with not much incentive to gain extra stats until you can use them... Most of this chart saw this character's high CHA stat go to waste. I still think it'd be better to account for the possibility of getting a few more lower spells in there... Somehow...

Not true. Per RAW, a 4th level Sor gets as many bonus spells from a 14 Cha as he does from an 18 Cha. The 18 Cha also increases his save DC's by another +2. It's not wasted at all.

 

[Pyrex]

The things I like about it are:
- you never have to wait more than 3 minutes to regen completely
- you almost always have to wait between 1 minute and 3 minutes to regen completely

If you're going to increase regeneration that aggressively, ManaPool needs to come way down. Say Base=TopLevel+(TopLevel-4).

 

[evilbob]

I just disagree about regen; it -should- be able to give you -something- in battle, or else it's just a mechanic that might as well be "10 mins and you're full." Basically, the rates you've listed make me think: what's the point of tracking it? I'd rather just wait 10 mins and be full, and save tons of (ultimately useless) math.

Which is why regen needs to happen faster. It can't be the only reason you win every battle, but it has to make a difference sometimes, or else: what's the point? One to three minutes is a good regen time, I think; you get enough to really -do- something with your regen, and its incentive enough to track it, but you can't turn the tide of battle every single time you fight because of it. And that is what DnD is all about!

I guess what I'm saying is: 10 mins is too slow. 2/round at level 20 is way too low. If you want to make it that way, use 2 minutes, or maybe 2.5 minutes. That's around the average I ended up with for mine.

Also, to be sure we're on the same page: my regen rate was going for your suggested point/bonus spell rate; the one just a few posts ago. I'm starting to like it more and more.

Not true. Per RAW, a 4th level Sor gets as many bonus spells from a 14 Cha as he does from an 18 Cha. The 18 Cha also increases his save DC's by another +2. It's not wasted at all.

Ah, yes - you're right.


Also, thinking ahead...

Wizd lvl   pool (Two) stat bonus est. total
1          2          1          3
2          4          1          5
3          5          1          6
4          6          2          8
5          8          2          10
6          10         4          14
7          12         4          16
8          15         6          21
9          19         6          25
10         25         10         35
11         32         10         42
12         40         15         55
13         52         15         67
14         65         25         90
15         80         25         105
16         105        25         130
17         135        25         160
18         170        25         195
19         215        40         255
20         275        40         315

I noticed that reversing your idea (level + next level instead of previous) lent itself to an interesting idea for prepared casters. However, this is another story altogether, because without regen, you need a looooot of points (and gaining spontaneous casting is worth a ton, but it's not worth everything). Anyway, just wanted to put this one out there...