how about this mana point version?

[evilbob]

So... This is my chart for what wizards would have if they had a straight 1-1 ratio of spell points (using the "modified fibonacci" sequence above) to spells they would have available.

Wizd lvl   pool       stat bonus est. total
1          1          1          2
2          2          1          3
3          4          3          7
4          7          3          10
5          11         7          18
6          17         7          24
7          24         13         37
8          34         14         48
9          46         24         70
10         62         26         88
11         81         41         122
12         106        41         147
13         137        41         178
14         177        70         247
15         227        70         297
16         292        70         362
17         372        70         442
18         477        70         547
19         567        116        683
20         672        116        788

This seems a bit much - but honestly, not too far out there (with the exception of levels 19 and 20 maybe). A level 17 wiz (with bonuses for Int modifier) could cast six 9th level spells instead of one, but only one 8th, one 5th, and one 2nd besides that before being out - not a far cry from (excluding zeros and including bonus spells) 6/6/6/5/5/5/4/2/1. I'm still working with the idea that prepared casters a) have to still prepare a set number of spells per day (as per the UA variant), b) cast spontaneously from that list of prepared spells, and c) must rest 8 hours to regain spell points. I'm still up in the air about resting an hour being ok to regain some spell points. It seems ok, since you can't swap spells out without a full rest, and an hour is an annoying time to track but it is how long you'd wait for another random encounter roll typically... I don't know.

One interesting thing to note about this sequence: in general, having a good stat modifier roughly amounts to you having the "next level's worth" of spell points.


On a side note, another spell to ban: repair minor. Same issue with warforged as cure minor with anyone else. The jury is still out on: all 0 spells with <time> per level durations, such as light, touch of fatigue, and message. Sure, at high levels these are completely trivial anyway, but at low levels they can make a difference (especially touch of fatigue - what a useful level zero spell!), and they are also spells for which the world breaks a little if there are many people who can cast them infinitely (torches are no longer useful or practical to sell, the telephone will never be invented ).

 

[evilbob]

Two ideas about how mana pools should work for prepared casters:
- they should have enough mana to cast around 4 of their highest level spells at the level they can cast it (this is because you need AT LEAST that much mana to approximate the lower level valences, and I don't believe this is too much). At even levels, they should have around 5 "highest casts."
Edit: for the first 4 levels, however, this should probably be more like 3. This is because you don't have enough lower level valences to make any difference (see code below).
- bonus mana from high stats could give mana equal to the two highest level spells they can cast (as opposed to the single highest spell like sorcs); for example, the 20th level wizard with a +8 Int bonus would have 25 + 40 = 65 extra mana. This seems to fit well with the pattern given in the chart above, especially if we're aiming for around 2/3rds - 4/5ths capacity.

Another cool thing about how this is all working out: 65 points (one 9th level) equals (not including zeros) 1/2/1/1/1/1/1. So, to get something equal to normal strength, five 9ths will just about cover the level 20 progression as such:

d20: 6/6/6/5/5/5/4/2/1
1st: 0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0/1
2nd: 0/0/0/0/0/0/1/1/0
3rd: 0/0/0/0/0/0/1/1/0
4th: 1/2/1/1/1/1/1/0/0
5th: 1/2/1/1/1/1/1/0/0

That gives you all your best spells with a slight fewer low levels, BUT you don't get TOO many casts of your best spells, and you can fire off zillions of low levels if you want.

 

[GreatLemur]

1.1) If it's truly a "problem" that 0 & 1st level spells both cost 1 then either:
->Make 0 level spells cost 0. (Seriously. In any model where the caster either has a) fast regen and/or b) the ability to cast 100 1st level spells in a day does it really matter how much mana a 0th level spell costs?)

->Track 0 level spells seperately. n/day, n/hour, n/encounter, whatever. Trying to kludge a measureable cost for 0 level spells is adding more difficulty to the process than it's worth.

I'd just like to chime in here to support unlimited free 0-level spells. Let's be honest, things like detect magic and read magic should always have been class features, anyway. I would probably want to eliminate a few 0-level spells, though, such as cure minor wounds.

 

[DungeonMaester]

I'd just like to chime in here to support unlimited free 0-level spells. Let's be honest, things like detect magic and read magic should always have been class features, anyway. I would probably want to eliminate a few 0-level spells, though, such as cure minor wounds.

Make Cure Minor Wounds a temp hit point. Then it would REALLY be limited to 1 hp.

---Rusty

 

[evilbob]

0-Level Cleric Spells (Orisons)
Virtue: Subject gains 1 temporary hp.

Actually, that's been covered.

However, simply changing the nature of the spell is not a bad idea. Basically, the whole point of cure minor / repair minor is not to actually "heal" someone, but (at least as far as I've ever seen it used) just stop someone from bleeding to death. So, change the spell to do exactly that. I think it can be served with this one sentence added to both spell descriptions: "This spell does not function on a creature that is stable or has zero or more HP."

And if you wanted to keep it symmetrical, you could always say that inflict minor doesn't work on any creature that is dying.

However this works out, I'm sure there have been more threads better than this one dedicated to figuring out how best to make zero-level spells cost nothing. Search, anyone?

 

[DungeonMaester]

Actually, that's been covered.

However, simply changing the nature of the spell is not a bad idea. Basically, the whole point of cure minor / repair minor is not to actually "heal" someone, but (at least as far as I've ever seen it used) just stop someone from bleeding to death. So, change the spell to do exactly that. I think it can be served with this one sentence added to both spell descriptions: "This spell does not function on a creature that is stable or has zero or more HP."

And if you wanted to keep it symmetrical, you could always say that inflict minor doesn't work on any creature that is dying.

However this works out, I'm sure there have been more threads better than this one dedicated to figuring out how best to make zero-level spells cost nothing. Search, anyone?

Phff....You ruined my mana point system by making it a game stoping mechanic..I owe you nothing

---Rusty

 

[Pyrex]

Spontaneous Casters

--> lvl 1 = 1 / 5 rounds
--> lvl 5 = 1/round
--> lvl 10 = 2/round
--> lvl 14 = 3/round
--> lvl 17 = 5/round
--> lvl 19 = 8/round

...

Which is why regen needs to happen faster. It can't be the only reason you win every battle, but it has to make a difference sometimes, or else: what's the point? One to three minutes is a good regen time, I think; you get enough to really -do- something with your regen, and its incentive enough to track it, but you can't turn the tide of battle every single time you fight because of it.

Ok, so you want a faster regen. That means manapool needs to come down.

But before we can finish balancing I need a clearer idea on exactly how much power you expect to have a spontaneous caster to have available.

Which of the following do you (dis)agree with?

1) Fast-regen Spontaneous casters should never be able to cast 4 Top-level spells on four consecutive rounds.

2) Fast-regen Spontaneous casters should never be able to cast 3 Top-level spells on three consecutive rounds.

3) Fast-regen Spontaneous casters should never be able to cast 4 Top-level spells over the duration of a 10-round combat.

4) Fast-regen Spontaneous casters should never be able to cast 3 Top-level spells over the duration of a 10-round combat.

FWIW, I hold all four to be true, but I'm somewhat willing to be swayed if 4) requires an impressive casting stat and wipes out the entire manapool.

 

[Pyrex]

Prepared Casters

Prepared Casters need a manapool approximately 4* the size of an equal level Fast-Regen spontaneous caster to be balanced over the course of the expected 4-encounter day. If Fast-Regen is fast enough to be meaningfull in combat, it increases to 5*.

Prepared Casters should only recover mana once a day.

Prepared Casters should not use the "prepared spontaneous" variant from UA, it gives them too much of an edge on the Spontaneous Caster. Instead they should prepare spells from their manapool based on their cost. (i.e., Five copies of Magic Missile at 1 mana each)

Prepared Casters don't have to prepare their entire manapool at once, they can leave some mana unprepared and spend another hour preparing spells later out of whatever is left.

 

[evilbob]

FWIW, I hold all four to be true, but I'm somewhat willing to be swayed if 4) requires an impressive casting stat and wipes out the entire manapool.

You and I agree on these points. I'm probably a little bit more lenient on 4 ("achieving level 20" seems ok to me, too, and I'm ok with "down to ~20%" instead of "wiped out"), but in general we agree.

I don't think a faster regen means a smaller pool. We've already severely - way past what I'm comfortable with - restricted a sorc's total spells per encounter. In particular I'm still worried about the BBEG-style encounters, when a sorc's ability to just "mana dump" is damn near a requirement for the class to be effective. Sorcs still need to be artilery cannons; total regen is practically an illusion anyway since your party can often still rest if they really need to. This leaves the sorc with "in-battle regen" as their only "edge." If they can't do that, then why play someone with a restricted spell list and 1/4th the mana who also gets spells a level late?

In fact, I'm starting to think that the sorcs need some slight other (non-magic-related) perks to make up for their discrepency... Like a d6 hit die or s'more skills or feats or something. I think the designers that came up with the sorcs considered "spontaneous casting" to be worth its weight in gold. If we give that to everyone, we need to balance sorcs out another way. Then again, if regen really works like its supposed to, I guess firing a fireball every other round is still a good deal...

 

[evilbob]

Prepared Casters need a manapool approximately 4* the size of an equal level Fast-Regen spontaneous caster to be balanced over the course of the expected 4-encounter day. If Fast-Regen is fast enough to be meaningfull in combat, it increases to 5*.

I agree on 1 and somewhat disagree on 2.

Prepared Casters should only recover mana once a day.

Prepared Casters should not use the "prepared spontaneous" variant from UA, it gives them too much of an edge on the Spontaneous Caster. Instead they should prepare spells from their manapool based on their cost. (i.e., Five copies of Magic Missile at 1 mana each)

Prepared Casters don't have to prepare their entire manapool at once, they can leave some mana unprepared and spend another hour preparing spells later out of whatever is left.

I think what you've done here is come close to defining a wizard. Except with fewer total spells, and the ability to move a few valences around.

Prepared spell points vs. prepared spell slots is an interesting idea, though. At the very least it would be nice to be able to sack all those unused 1st and 2nd slots to get a few more upper level casts. I've also not heard of another idea like that before...

Gotta think about that one.


Another random thought: I think the warlock class goes a long way toward proving that many spells, even when used infinite times per day, don't break the game.