How bad does the bard suck?

[Darklone]

Actually, I can’t shine 5 times per evening until I’m 5th level. You see, that’s when my Bardic Music gets to be used 5 times a day. I’d prefer not to wait until 5th level to “shine 5 times a night” thank you.

I guess we are getting closer to your problem...

I didn't say I shined 5 times per night with 5 times bardic music. I'm not that unimaginativ.
Let me give a few nice examples how a low level bard might have fun during an evening:
- combat: Sing, shoot a few arrows.
- save a buddy who went down with a potion or a cure spell because you don't have anything else to do (and the big bad fighter over there does not look like your sparringspartner)
- steal the heart of a nice lady... who happens to know something important. James Bond was a bard.
- Sit back with 0 hp and let your Dancing lights hop after the invisible flying wizard with fireballs who conveniently stays out of the reach of your cleric buddies invis purge. Watch the groups archers turn the wiz into a flying porcupine.
- Go to a drinking tour through town and find out all the slimy details about persons who you might meet or have met already.
- sneak up behind your buddy the rogue when he's disarming a trap and shout BOOHYA!
- Get a new job for your group when noone else finds one.
- do some wetwork. Coup de Grace needs no sneak attack. A greataxe does the job as well.
- Sure, any multiclass can tumble singingwise into flanking position and waste the BBEG fighter with a raging sneak attack when your scimitar gives you a critical... but can they do it with style?
- Zorro was a bard.
- Conan was no bard. He had one. And he needed him
- Invent a new personality... make some use of disguise, it's fun.
- Where do you go to when no oracle and no commune gives you the answer you need? Pay the bard enough that he can spend the night in the local brothel and he'll have your answer.
- Have you ever dragged an unconscious buddy over the edge of a 40 ft chasm and have him land on you because upstairs a wizard shot his last fireball at the edge, thinking you climbed down?

Style, buddy. Panache and fun. Bard class is about both, not about rules and dice and kill'em all spells

That's why I love the class.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

There will be a time when the bard is going to be revised (which is like, next week if you believe some people.) At that time, there needs to be a very clear cut case for what needs to be done. This obviously WASN’T done prior to 3.5. When it comes to knowing why the bard just doesn’t work, threads like this one or others that crop up because of it will be quite useful. It’s ugly work, but it must be done. We CANNOT have people saying, “the bard is just fine leave it be for 4.0”, that would be a disaster.

And remember...only one cross per person! I guess you must be hoping designers look past all those many people who think that the bard is okay as it is, or with the few modifications already delivered by the game, and only to the loud-voiced minority that clamours that the bard sucks, for whatever weird reasons. I think that's a heck of an optimism there, but well, hope springs eternal and all that.

 

[Sound of Azure]

I think that's a heck of an optimism there, but well, hope springs eternal and all that.

I think someone is inspiring his courage....

 

[Crothian]

There will be a time when the bard is going to be revised (which is like, next week if you believe some people.) At that time, there needs to be a very clear cut case for what needs to be done. This obviously WASN’T done prior to 3.5. When it comes to knowing why the bard just doesn’t work, threads like this one or others that crop up because of it will be quite useful. It’s ugly work, but it must be done. We CANNOT have people saying, “the bard is just fine leave it be for 4.0”, that would be a disaster.

If that is what you wanted the thread to be, you failed with your original post and thread title.

 

[Aus_Snow]

Personally, I prefer the Bard class from the Complete Book of Eldritch Might (from Malhavoc Press). It works better for my purposes.

Still, I've had a bit of exposure to the D&D 3e Bard in a couple of others' campaigns. I even ran one (multiclassed) as an NPC a little while back. There doesn't appear to be anything drastically wrong with the class, from what I've seen. Power-wise - in terms of what they can achieve and contribute to - they're up there with the rest. The characters are valued and respected.

Anyway, I voted "the Bard's not too bad", for what it's worth. It might've got a slightly different vote if the flavour of the class appealed to me more.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

My point was that bardic knowledge is really vague in the rules. It needs to have some quantiable mechanic behind it, besides just DC 10 basic information, DC 15 a little more than basic information, etc. Let them learn about weaknesses to opponents, convert their knowledge into bonuses to hit and damage (or even deal additional damage die like a sneak attack).

Sounds like the archivist. That actually wouldn't be such a bad addition to the bard.

The problem about inspire courage is that it takes a standard action to maintain concentration on the ability to keep the party going. Meaning you can do nothing else.

This is not true. Inspire courage doesn't require concentration to maintain.

So if I'm not using the bard correctly, how is it done?

By reading the description of the class carefully, apparently.

 

[Set]

As lots of people have pointed out, bards get better the larger your party

A party with a Bard and a Marshal combined with a Summoner-specialist (Conjurer, Druid or Cleric) would be pretty neat. I'm not sure if the bardic music would affect undead the same way (or at all), but if it did, a Dread Necromancer (or similar horde-of-undead specialist, like a Master of Shrouds) would also benefit greatly from group-affecting buffs like bardic inspiration.

 

[Sejs]

I'm not sure if the bardic music would affect undead the same way (or at all), but if it did, a Dread Necromancer (or similar horde-of-undead specialist, like a Master of Shrouds) would also benefit greatly from group-affecting buffs like bardic inspiration.

Normally, it wouldn't. Immunity to Mind Affecting Effects means immunity to most of what bardic music can offer. Not all, but most. A lot of it deals with morale bonuses, which is mind affecting.

With the Requiem feat, however, it's all good.

 

[TarionzCousin]

I cringe when someone decides to play a bard.

I know my job just got a whole lot harder.

<cut>

Plus, I give a lot of Background Info away with Bardic Lore that can come back to aid the party later (if they pay attention the first time).

I agree. DMing a party with a Bard in it requires more background work. Those Bardic Knowledge checks make "winging it" much more difficult.

However, I enjoy having a bard character in the group I DM because it encourages much more than simple hacking and slashing.

P.S. I also prefer the Eldritch Might bard. Good stuff, Monte.

 

[Darklone]

I do like some stuff about the Monte bard... yet it's ability to be a better damage blaster than the sorcerer was too much into the wrong direction IMHO.

I do think that going into the direction of including the bardic music effects more into the bards spellcasting while granting him some other abilities would help.

IMC, I didn't like another change from 3.0 to 3.5 for the bard. In 3.0, we had some bards (singleclass) wearing breastplates and large shields and playing pretty effective fighters. Their damage output wasn't too great (like any sword&boarder), yet their AC was pretty nice for lower levels. Without spending any real money.

At higher levels they might have changed into a mithral fullplate... With point buy, they easily kept the first three stats at about 14.

Compared to the groups fighter, they usually had about (5+char level) less hitpoints, similar AC and better saves. Granted, I only saw these dudes till level 8... but till then they were rather effective melee combatants (most often with one buff spell even closer to the fighter). These guys plus the cleric build up the shield wall protecting the offensive spellcasters. And they did a great job.