How bad is the paladin going to be without armor in combat?

[tintagel]

Except now the wizard DOESN'T lose his AC and if the DM lowers the encounter difficulty to pamper the paladin, the wizard turns into Mr. Unhittable and tromps on all the bad guys like Godzilla crushing a fishing town.

So not the same now as it was then.

And if the DM lowered the difficulty back then to pamper the same unarmored paladin, the wizard would still have great AC, with his Mage Armor +4, Shield, Mirror Image, Displacement, etc... While the Pally just got beat on.

Geez, how are you able to completely ignore such basic core mechanics?

A Pally without armor is 8 points worse now. Just as then. The wizard has a good AC now, just as then. Only then he had crazy defensive abilities like mirror image, stoneskin, displacement, etc. Read your PHBs before you post dude.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Except now the wizard DOESN'T lose his AC and if the DM lowers the encounter difficulty to pamper the paladin, the wizard turns into Mr. Unhittable and tromps on all the bad guys like Godzilla crushing a fishing town.

So not the same now as it was then.

I'm sorry, but the math simply does not back you up here.

A 4e wizard will have what, +4 or +5 AC from Int?

In 3.x wizards got +4 AC from Mage Armor, a first level spell. (I won't even go into their higher level spells).

In 2nd ed, wizards got a serious AC bonus from Shield (the first level spell); something like AC 2 (+8 AC in current terms).

The fluff might have changed, but it is still the same now as it was then.

 

[Midknightsun]

Maybe I'm missing something, but it sounds like this particular scenario will revolve around the group having to go without armor, but it will be one game and not the entire campaign, yes?

If so, what's the problem? The ability to adapt and overcome challenges is part and parcel with being an adventurer. Sometimes you have to overcome and adapt to unusual challenges, and that's a fun game. I wouldn't want this sprung upon me as an entire campaign, mind you, but for a single adventure? Sounds fine to me.

I don't know the particulars of the adventure, but in taking place in a castle, it would seem likely that it is possible to get some armor or a shield at some point, like, say, in the aftermath of one of the battles.

I think this is one of those "kids these days moments."

--Steve

I would have to agree with this sentiment. A one time adventure where the pally is without his armor is a challenge to me, not a reason to cry foul. Now if it happened all the time, yes, I'd be miffed, but that doesn't seem to be the situation here. Pick your fights more carefully, use more BS (diplomacy), etc. Of course, the enchanted cloth armor idea was pretty decent to add a little extra support, but i hardly see the need for the Pally to sprout new abilities based on the situation being a little tougher than usual. Wanting the game to be fair is completely understandable. Expecting every scenario to be completely "fair" and equal is not only boring, but smacks of player entitlement. I kind of find it funny to think all adventures should be styrofoam coated so the PCs can just use their shtick to solve everything. . . all the time. YMMV

 

[Regicide]

I'm sorry, but the math simply does not back you up here.

I don't know what 3E you guys were playing, but losing plate or swapping it for a more stealthy armour like a chain shirt would bring 3E paladins closer to parity with wizard's AC, not make them significantly worse, and while paladins may not be as likely as a fighter to have dodge or expertise feats to further help their AC, they're far more likely to have it than a wizard. As 4E stands, wizards can often have higher ACs than Paladins BEFORE the paladin takes their armour off.

 

[FireLance]

The paladin just needs a suit of summoned armor (p. 53, Adventurer's Vault).

It's like WotC has anticipated that paladins may need to be stealthy or otherwise move around without armor sometimes, but will also need to get armored up quickly when a fight breaks out and being armored is more important than being sneaky. WotC can't be that smart, right?

 

[FireLance]

I don't know what 3E you guys were playing, but losing plate or swapping it for a more stealthy armour like a chain shirt would bring 3E paladins closer to parity with wizard's AC, not make them significantly worse, and while paladins may not be as likely as a fighter to have dodge or expertise feats to further help their AC, they're far more likely to have it than a wizard. As 4E stands, wizards can often have higher ACs than Paladins BEFORE the paladin takes their armour off.

And in 4e, wearing hide armor brings a paladin to 13 + Dex/Int bonus + other bonuses, which gives him the same AC as an equal-level wizard whose Int is about 6 points higher than the paladin's Dex/Int. Since Heavy Blade Opportunity is a good feat for many paladins, you can expect the paladin to have a Dexterity of 12 or more. A Dex 12 paladin in hide would thus have a base AC of 14, same as that for an Int 18 wizard in cloth.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I don't know what 3E you guys were playing, but losing plate or swapping it for a more stealthy armour like a chain shirt would bring 3E paladins closer to parity with wizard's AC, not make them significantly worse, and while paladins may not be as likely as a fighter to have dodge or expertise feats to further help their AC, they're far more likely to have it than a wizard.

I admit that I haven't read the adventure in question (I tried to download it but the site said the number of downloads had been exceeded or some such) but I am under the impression that no armor is not allowed inside the castle (aside from cloth).

I'm guessing you've never worn one, but a chain shirt isn't exactly what I'd call stealthy; it makes a distinct noise as you move. I suppose that you could probably cover up the noise from the shirt by wearing multiple small bells, but at that point you wouldn't be stealthy at all. IMO, a breastplate worn beneath your clothing would be significantly more "stealthy" (though still kind of obvious), and my impression was that this adventure wouldn't let the PCs get away with that.

As 4E stands, wizards can often have higher ACs than Paladins BEFORE the paladin takes their armour off.

Wizards wear cloth armor (+0 AC) and get their Int to AC as well (+4 or +5). Paladins wear plate mail (+8 AC). Unless you demonstrate the validity of this statement, no offense, I don't believe you.

 

[tintagel]

Regicide, can I have some of that LSD you are licking? 'Cause you honestly are on a whole other planet than the rest of EN World...