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How balanced should a game be?

Enkill

First Post
A game has to be balanced, to the extent that you don't get into situations where everyone plays the same character because all the other character concepts don't measure up. That's just mechanics and good character options.

Now that said, I don't agree that antagonists, traps, and other hazards should be balanced in such a way that they represent a Good challenge to a group. If my first level rogue wants to try and sneak into the king's bed chambers and steal his crown while he sleeps, my rogue should expect to face challenges far beyond what he's accustomed to.
 

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Quartz

Hero
Each race and class should be equally fun to play; no race or class should outshine the others.

I don't believe in sacrificing 'power' early on for greater power later in classes. Two low-level characters of different classes should be similarly powerful to two high-level characters.
 

Jhaelen

First Post
I'm fine with each character specializing in different things, and I'm fine with the generalist being worse than the specialist at their one thing, but better at other things. It's when you can be a generalist who outperforms - or obsoletes - specialists that I balk.
[...]
Sure. But those other things besides single combat should be equally useful, and used just as often, or else it's still a worse choice.
Pretty much this. For me the most important aspect of 'balance' is that every character must have the same chance to 'shine' in a typical game session. Ideally, every character can contribute something in every session. I'd still consider it okay if a character can only contribute something every other session, but less than that and I'd consider it a problem.

If you have a party of extreme specialists, then as the DM you must be careful to give everyone something to do. It's obviously easier to create adventures if there's a common 'thing' that everyone is at least adequately good at that comes up every session. For D&D that 'thing' typically means combat encounters. 4e solved that by making every character equally proficient in combat.

I'm not a friend of trading 'short-term effectiveness' for 'long-term over-poweredness'. This was a big problem in our AD&D 1e and 2e campaigns. If it takes too long for a character until she's able to carry her own weight, that's frustrating for everyone involved.

Finally, regarding 'imbalance' with weapon choices: Imho, there must always be a reason for choosing a sub-optimal weapon, e.g. in your comparison: a bazooka will probably be a lot more expensive than a paper-knife, so maybe for a poor character it's a non-choice. The paper-knife may also have situational advantages, e.g. it should work better in close combat or if silence is an important issue. It might also work against a foe that is immune against bazookas.
I recall that in 3e my characters always carried a dagger along with their primary weapon of choice, just in cased they encountered a monster that could swallow them whole or grab them.
 

1of3

Explorer
By "balanced" I mean "every character design choice bring equal". It's a theme I've seen crop up both in discussion of things like D&D and in feedback on my own game design.

One would then ask: Equal in what regard?

DPR? Action Economy? Tankiness? Niche protected abilities? Utilities? Complexity? Fighting PvP? Background?
 

Celebrim

Legend
By "balanced" I mean "every character design choice bring equal". It's a theme I've seen crop up both in discussion of things like D&D and in feedback on my own game design.

I think you definition obscures the point.

By "balanced" I mean, "produces generally functional gameplay so that there are no trivial strategies and there are roughly equal opportunities for all participants to win". This definition encompasses all games, and not merely RPGs.

So, for example, "Tic Tac Toe" fails this test hard. The gameplay is not functional, since there are a small set of trivial strategies that reduce the game to rote mechanical responses. The gameplay highly favors the person who goes first, as they have a larger number of effective options and the person going second is basically forced to only respond. Finally, in the end, neither player has a reasonable opportunity to win resulting in tedium.

In the context of RPGs, a game is not balanced if:

1) There exists extreme degrees of system mastery so that those with system mastery and knowledge of esoteric rules and combinations can produce characters that are much more powerful than those designed in a straightforward manner. A 'win' for an RPG implies everyone has fun, and thus the sort of design that promotes ever increasing system mastery which might be desirable in a competitive game, is not desirable in an RPG. That is not to say that no system mastery can exist, but that it can only produce a range of abilities that doesn't depart significantly from expectations. At a fundamental level, a social RPG is not a competitive game and you certainly don't 'win' by beating the other players, especially the other players of PCs.

2) The game produces such a wide range of potential power levels, that GMs and designers are unable to plan for the likely abilities that the characters may have. This is not to say that characters can't be more or less suited for potential challenges, or that they may have differing levels of ability. Players have a right to produce suboptimal and esoteric characters if they desire. What it shouldn't mean is that it is actually less straightforward to produce a suboptimal and esoteric character than it would be to produce a very useful and functional one, and even suboptimal and esoteric characters will have real strengths. It means that straightforward obvious choices shouldn't lead to suboptimal characters, and that this is discovered only through play. If this is not true, then a GM or designer requires very intimate knowledge of PC abilities and must tailor everything to the PCs. This is an advanced skill, tends to promote railroading (the GM is choosing whether or not the players succeed at all times), consequently tends to promote a high degree of illusionism, and obviously means that the game designers cannot write generic scenarios for consumption by the player base (which is almost entirely lethal to a game in the long run).

3) If it is easy to create characters that have no chance of participating. By default, though every character need not be equally useful in every situation, every character should be at least minimally useful in the games core concept of play. It should require significant effort and obviously weird and unusual choices to produce a character that can't contribute in the games core gameplay. For example, the core game play in D&D tends to be, "Kick the door down, kill the Orc, and take his Pie." Every character not intentionally made to be suboptimal in that core gameplay should be able to contribute effectively at every level of play. It should be hard to create an character that is not effective in combat, and there should be no traps where a character starts out reasonably effective in core gameplay but eventually becomes useless. On the other hand, if it isn't possible to design your character to be skilled in esoteric situations, then a game lacks the flexibility to encompass gameplay outside of its core focus. That also tends to be bad for an RPG in a long run, as it leads to tedious repetition.

4) Anything that absolutely or effectively breaks the core rule of RPGs - "Thou shalt not be good at everything" - is right out and must be excluded from the design. If it is possible to create characters that can resolve all challenges without depending on their peers, then that sort of character must be excluded as something that can be created because it renders the game non-social and ultimately non-interactive for every other player. If it is possible to create a character that can breeze through the sort of challenges a character of that degree of experience is expected to face, that character has to be excluded from those available to the players because it trivializes the game and renders it effectively non-interactive. If it is possibly to design a 'Johnny One-Trick', with a trick so strong, that every problem is turned into a nail that can be hit by your extremely effective hammer, that character has to be excluded from those available to the players because it trivializes the game and renders it effectively non-interactive. If the players of your game are speaking of "optimization" in terms of creating characters of that sort, you've created a defective game. Optimization ought to only refer to being able to accomplish what the player wants to accomplish through character design reasonably well, and the game is well designed when this is intuitive and requires no special knowledge. Regardless of how challenging game play is intended to be, CharGen should not be difficult. If 'optimization' is coded language for breaking the game, and you've got a percentage of your customers that are proud of their ability to do so and snear at those that can't or don't, you've already lost.

5) Your system should be designed so that to create an archetypal character requires straightforward predictable choices. If the best way to create a spell-users is to not create a spell-user, or the best way to create a brutally effective melee combatant is to not create a melee combatant, you've got big problems. For example, certain instances of the 'Elder Scroll' series had the problem that if you wanted to be good at something in the long run, the best short term strategy was to choose not to be good at it. Likewise, arguably the best way to build a 'fighter' in 3e was to play a different class as wizard or cleric optimized for melee combat was superior by RAW. Those are examples of extremely poor balance in your system.

In simple terms, your RPG is balanced if it is easy for a group of players with different experience level to create a character using any of the straightforward archetypes the game presents in such a way that in an average session each player gets a chance to contribute to the groups success, and over the course of the campaign each players contribution toward the parties success has been roughly equal.

Conversely, your system is probably over balanced if the only way to succeed in it is to conform very highly to the systems expectations regarding character builds and party composition. If there is no flexibility to approach tasks in different ways, your balance is impinging on player freedom too highly.
 

Celebrim

Legend
I'm not a friend of trading 'short-term effectiveness' for 'long-term over-poweredness'. This was a big problem in our AD&D 1e and 2e campaigns. If it takes too long for a character until she's able to carry her own weight, that's frustrating for everyone involved.

In the short term, by which I mean, "up until 7th level or so", it was extremely unfun to play a M-U. You had limited choices, and unless the DM rewarded you with a kit of magic items that made being the M-U more fun (a number of effective wands, bracers of defense and similar rare defensive magic), you were playing less of a character than a party magic item to provide utility when called on. But in the long run, if no one carried that burden, you'd get to 10th level or so and suddenly there would be a proliferation of "problems that can only be solved by magic" and a party without high level M-U's was utterly gimped in many situations. Consider the text of something like Mud Sorcerer's Tomb where so many situations amount to, "Either you have a particular high level spell available, or else you die." While it's an extreme example, it's by no means atypical of play at high level.

As for clerics, they rarely escaped the trap of simply being useful utility magic items the party dragged along with them.

It's not that 1e had no balance or that there was never a reason to play something other than a spell-caster (it was probably better about that than 3.X), but rather that there was significant room for improvement in the experience of play.
 

Janx

Hero
A long time ago, James Ernest of CheapDonkey Games (CAG) said he liked to design his games so they were fairly random, but that if a player applied a lot of brains to it, they'd get a modest advantage over somebody who didn't.

In a game about dinosaurs racing to jump into a volcano, it meant that things were relatively equal between players. the smart player would notice a slight advantage, but not have an overwhelming one.

In a mostly cooperative game like D&D, I would expect that while some combinations are "better" than others, at face value, there should be no totally crap player classes when you are building to join a "sight unseen generic, stereotypical campaign"

Nobody should tell you "don't play a Bard, they totally suck" because they are right, they can't do anything well or useful.

While PCs should have some variance in damage (not 1d6 for everybody), we should not find that one PC can only ever inflict 1d4 of damage, while another PC is consistently flinging out 20d8 damage every round.

Obviouslty, that's a combat descriptor, but since Combat weighs heavily in D&D, your PC's ability to be useful in combat better be in damage, or side effects that make it obvious that you contributed to the fight. A cleric that keeps healing, or a rogue that sets up flanks and backstabs and its obvious where the party got benefit from then. Combat is a situation where people who don't participate should be dead is a cold hard reality. There are no living pacifists in an ambush.

The more your Useless PC is a wallflower by mechanics, not sneaking, not solving problems, not doing damage or saving the party, then that is an imbalance. It's measurable by how much camera time the PC is getting while they actually do stuff that is useful to the party.
 

Ebony Dragon

First Post
A game should be so balanced that it doesn't matter what a player does. They can choose any option, use any gear, take any action (or inaction) and be exactly as useful as any other character taking any other conceivable action or choice. In fact, since player choice has no benefit, the players themselves are entirely optional as well. A GM could theoretically run the game by herself and the outcome would be the same as if players had participated.

Thinking about this further, the GM may also be optional in such a game. As monsters would be subject to the same balance restrictions as the player characters this would mean their choices are also perfectly balanced with every other choice so it really doesn't matter what action they take at any given time.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
It means that straightforward obvious choices shouldn't lead to suboptimal characters...

I think we are suffering from a bit of overuse of the term "optimal". We wind up speaking as if there are only two states: Optimal, and sub-optimal.

In real play, I think there are really more like three states: Ineffective, Effective, and Optimal. Obvious choices shouldn't lead to ineffective characters. It is okay if obvious choices lead to merely effective characters.

If I'm playing a fighter, and I choose a decent Str and Con, pick up a longsword, shield, and chain mail (pretty obvious choices), I should expect to be effective. I should not expect to be Best of the Best of the Best, but the character should be able to contribute in a respectable way, and not be too outshone by the ones who are actually optimal.
 

Cronocke

Explorer
If I'm playing a fighter, and I choose a decent Str and Con, pick up a longsword, shield, and chain mail (pretty obvious choices), I should expect to be effective. I should not expect to be Best of the Best of the Best

... why not? Why can't the obvious choices be just as good as the esoteric ones? The difference between "effective" and "optimal", to my mind, should be razor-thin, and nothing should ever be "ineffective".
 

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