How big were the holdings of Barons? Lords?
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Dragongirl
First Post
That is a rather difficult question to answer. There was a wide range of land held by any title. A baron could have a coupld dozen acres to tens of 1000s depending on their family history and wealth.
Lord Pendragon
First Post
This is especially true depending on what part of western Europe you look at. England never had a true feudal system (where the lesser lords swear fealty to a greater lord, on up to the king) but rather all the nobility swore directly to the crown.Dragongirl said:
So as Dragongirl says, the size of a title's holdings had little correlation to the title itself.
G'day
The size of a baron's holdings varied immensely. At one extreme you had, for example, the Sieur de Couchy, who was one of the six richest and most powerful nobles in France, with far wider holdings than most comtes (counts). In the late Fourteenth Century Enguerrand de Couchy VI bought the lands of the county of Soissons for cash. At the other you had barons who were barely distinguished from landed knights. In England (where the status of baron was not formalised until Tudor times, after the end of the mediaeval period) a poor baron/rich knight might be summoned to one Parliament but not to the next.
Very roughly, a manor is about the same as a village, and a village is about the same as a parish, though the correspondence is exact only about half the time. Let us take as an example the village of Elton described in "Life in a Mediaeval Village" by Gies and Gies (ISBN 0-06-092046-7, an essential read for GMs devising pseudo-mediaeval settings).
According to Domesday Book: "In Adelitune the abbot of Ramsay had ten hides to the geld. There is land for four ploughs in the demesne aside from the aforesaid hides. There are now four ploughs on the demesne, and twenty-eight villeins having twenty ploughs. There is a church and a priest, and two mills [paying] forty shillings, and 170 acres of meadow. In the time of King Edward it was worth fourteen pounds [per annum], now sixteen pounds."
Unfortunately a hide is only approximately 120 acres. And the acre was variable. And Domesday Book rounded villages to the nearest five hides.
In 1279 Elton had "13 hides of six virgates each", and in that part of the country a virgate (the standard holding of a peasant tenant) was 24 acres. So the arable by that time amounted to 1,872 acres, besides which there was meadow, and pasture, and woods. Elton was a large village, capable of summoning 327 workers to the harvest from 113 households. Total population was probably about 500-600. 45% of villages in the Midlands had populations between 400 and 600, and only 10% were larger.
A petty landed knight might own only one such manor. A wealthy knight or poor 'baron' might own six. The abbot of Ramsay owned 23. Earls owned scores of them, scattered across half of England. The Order of Knights of St John owned 19,000 in France alone.
Regards,
Agback
The size of a baron's holdings varied immensely. At one extreme you had, for example, the Sieur de Couchy, who was one of the six richest and most powerful nobles in France, with far wider holdings than most comtes (counts). In the late Fourteenth Century Enguerrand de Couchy VI bought the lands of the county of Soissons for cash. At the other you had barons who were barely distinguished from landed knights. In England (where the status of baron was not formalised until Tudor times, after the end of the mediaeval period) a poor baron/rich knight might be summoned to one Parliament but not to the next.
Very roughly, a manor is about the same as a village, and a village is about the same as a parish, though the correspondence is exact only about half the time. Let us take as an example the village of Elton described in "Life in a Mediaeval Village" by Gies and Gies (ISBN 0-06-092046-7, an essential read for GMs devising pseudo-mediaeval settings).
According to Domesday Book: "In Adelitune the abbot of Ramsay had ten hides to the geld. There is land for four ploughs in the demesne aside from the aforesaid hides. There are now four ploughs on the demesne, and twenty-eight villeins having twenty ploughs. There is a church and a priest, and two mills [paying] forty shillings, and 170 acres of meadow. In the time of King Edward it was worth fourteen pounds [per annum], now sixteen pounds."
Unfortunately a hide is only approximately 120 acres. And the acre was variable. And Domesday Book rounded villages to the nearest five hides.
In 1279 Elton had "13 hides of six virgates each", and in that part of the country a virgate (the standard holding of a peasant tenant) was 24 acres. So the arable by that time amounted to 1,872 acres, besides which there was meadow, and pasture, and woods. Elton was a large village, capable of summoning 327 workers to the harvest from 113 households. Total population was probably about 500-600. 45% of villages in the Midlands had populations between 400 and 600, and only 10% were larger.
A petty landed knight might own only one such manor. A wealthy knight or poor 'baron' might own six. The abbot of Ramsay owned 23. Earls owned scores of them, scattered across half of England. The Order of Knights of St John owned 19,000 in France alone.
Regards,
Agback
I suppose if I baseline the sizes at 500 people under a "typical" barony, with total lands about 2500 acres including meadows and forest (widely variable), I'd be okay. Hrm.
Kilmore
First Post
You're designing a realm? Perhaps a map of the geography of the area would be a good idea first... I wouldn't worry too much about how it's going to fill out politically... at first. After the geographic map is done, then you could see what natural borders and sites for cities exist.
Larger territories like counties will have borders aligned with the natural terrain, like along rivers and streams, groves of trees, mountains, etc. Figure out where those counties will have their settlements, and there you have where your barons come from.
Mix it up with a few hundred years of history, with wars, marriages, plots, conquering the frontiers, etc. Then I believe you would probably have a very vivid realm.
Oh, and start small.
Larger territories like counties will have borders aligned with the natural terrain, like along rivers and streams, groves of trees, mountains, etc. Figure out where those counties will have their settlements, and there you have where your barons come from.
Mix it up with a few hundred years of history, with wars, marriages, plots, conquering the frontiers, etc. Then I believe you would probably have a very vivid realm.
Oh, and start small.
In the AMMS;WE from EXP a baron is a noble who owns the land he rules/administers/governs/runs roughshod over outright, instead of holding it from another.
A complication that many don't consider is the holding of mulitple titles. Baron George of Riverdeep may also be Duke of Courtwall, Earl of the North by North West Isles, and a Knight of the Wrist Band. All earned by himself or an ancestor for some reason or another. ("Drat it all, the Duke of Courtwall managed to get himself killed by his lover before we could get him drunk enough to have sex with a woman and produce an heir. Robert, would you like to be a duke as well as a baron?")
So Baron Robert (great grandfather of Baron George) finds himself -as Duke of Courtwall- an ally of a man he -as Baron- is having a border war with. If you think that's bad, they can get worse. A lot worse.
Add in a few generations of shifting alliances and animosities, along with additional rewards and the occasional divestment of title and priveleges, and keeping track of who is lord of where and squire of what can get a tad involved.
This all reminds me of a story I read long ago. In one part our hero is taken to a formal royal affair. When he arrives the aristocrats are being introduced. Each of which has about a dozen titles and honorifics bestowed for such things as making a killing in the market, writing the winning poem at a district poetry contest, or having the best kept vegetable garden. There are tons of them. After the last baron/count/earl/squire/knight is introduced come the lords. The lords are few in number, usually have done something momentous to earn the title, and where the barons/dukes/knights of something or other elicit barely a ripple of interest, the lords get everybody's attention. These are important men.
In short, the power, prestige, and/or influence a noble has often depends on how he gained his title. What did he have to do to gain it? One easily gained will not have the cachet of an (officially) lesser rank earned through hard service. In addition, the power a title holds can depend on the society. In feudal Japan the nobility had little power, though they were, in theory, superior to the aristocrats who really ran the country. It is thought that the Japanese nobility were descended from the original immigrants from Korea, and kept pretty much 'pure' by breeding only among themselves. The aristocrats (daimyos and samurai for instance) arose from a mixture of Korean immigrant, Japanese aborigine and perhaps other groups as well, leading to a more 'vital' population than the inbreed nobility.
Finally, consider the variety of titles from around the world. Baron, bey, and boyar may be equivalent titles, but the power they held could vary wildly. But don't feel too bad. I thought a few hours of research on the Condylarthra would produce an essay for Mythus Mutters. Only to learn that the Condylarthra as a group are on their way out -along with the other mammalian groups, to be replaced by four super groups based on work in genetics. (Did you know we're now grouped with bunnies and rats? In a group known as the Euarchontoglires. I learned this from an article in the April 2003 issue of National Geographic) So I've got work to do before I can start my series on mammals for d20 games.
Good luck with your research.
A complication that many don't consider is the holding of mulitple titles. Baron George of Riverdeep may also be Duke of Courtwall, Earl of the North by North West Isles, and a Knight of the Wrist Band. All earned by himself or an ancestor for some reason or another. ("Drat it all, the Duke of Courtwall managed to get himself killed by his lover before we could get him drunk enough to have sex with a woman and produce an heir. Robert, would you like to be a duke as well as a baron?")
So Baron Robert (great grandfather of Baron George) finds himself -as Duke of Courtwall- an ally of a man he -as Baron- is having a border war with. If you think that's bad, they can get worse. A lot worse.
Add in a few generations of shifting alliances and animosities, along with additional rewards and the occasional divestment of title and priveleges, and keeping track of who is lord of where and squire of what can get a tad involved.
This all reminds me of a story I read long ago. In one part our hero is taken to a formal royal affair. When he arrives the aristocrats are being introduced. Each of which has about a dozen titles and honorifics bestowed for such things as making a killing in the market, writing the winning poem at a district poetry contest, or having the best kept vegetable garden. There are tons of them. After the last baron/count/earl/squire/knight is introduced come the lords. The lords are few in number, usually have done something momentous to earn the title, and where the barons/dukes/knights of something or other elicit barely a ripple of interest, the lords get everybody's attention. These are important men.
In short, the power, prestige, and/or influence a noble has often depends on how he gained his title. What did he have to do to gain it? One easily gained will not have the cachet of an (officially) lesser rank earned through hard service. In addition, the power a title holds can depend on the society. In feudal Japan the nobility had little power, though they were, in theory, superior to the aristocrats who really ran the country. It is thought that the Japanese nobility were descended from the original immigrants from Korea, and kept pretty much 'pure' by breeding only among themselves. The aristocrats (daimyos and samurai for instance) arose from a mixture of Korean immigrant, Japanese aborigine and perhaps other groups as well, leading to a more 'vital' population than the inbreed nobility.
Finally, consider the variety of titles from around the world. Baron, bey, and boyar may be equivalent titles, but the power they held could vary wildly. But don't feel too bad. I thought a few hours of research on the Condylarthra would produce an essay for Mythus Mutters. Only to learn that the Condylarthra as a group are on their way out -along with the other mammalian groups, to be replaced by four super groups based on work in genetics. (Did you know we're now grouped with bunnies and rats? In a group known as the Euarchontoglires. I learned this from an article in the April 2003 issue of National Geographic) So I've got work to do before I can start my series on mammals for d20 games.
Good luck with your research.
Dragongirl
First Post
I think we should get Mythusmage and Edena to write us a treatise on the subject.
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