How can nations afford armies?

[LostSoul]

I think that, given a typical D&D world's level of magic, you wouldn't see low-level armies used for anything other than policing conquered states.

High-level characters would fight "wars of assasins", trying to take out the other high-level characters. A very cool concept.

I really don't think that a low-level army could do anything to a hasted, improved-invisible, flying mage with a wand of fireballs. He could wait for the army to move into his maximum rage (say 500 feet), lob off a fireball, then fly away. Once the army "stands down" and begins to march again, he does it all over again.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

When considering the differences in military organization between medieval Europe and the much larger scale militaries found among the Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Incas, Japanese, Chinese, etc it's also important to consider that warfare was conducted differently by the medieval Europeans as well. As I understand it (not being as well read in the subject as SHARK, but having some knowledge of the subject), many wars in medieval Europe were fought according to strict codes whereby generals would agree to the field of battle beforehand, (the origin of the phrase "pitched battle" IIRC), etc. I would imagine that these "rules of war" had a significant effect on the structure and operating procedures of medieval armies.

This is also something worth considering for fantasy settings. Perhaps, the rules of war are thought to forbid flying or perhaps even the use of wands. Such rules would not always be adhered to, of course, but when a side that defied them lost anyway, they would be subject to much harsher treatment from their victors. (If tradition ordinarily required mercy for defeated foes (and the families of defeated foes) but required complete and total destruction (every man woman and child, perhaps even buildings and cattle) of a foe who used wands, most leaders would give serious thought to their actions before allowing their troops to break the tradition). Such traditions might not be as obvious or as harsh but could explain some of the idiosyncracies of war in campaign settings.

 

[Dispater]

Concering rules of war.. the use of cannons in the 14th century was considered by many unfair and dirty. This didn't prevent armies from using them, though. When comparing antique armies to medieval, I think the differences are in the social structure, and of course the density of population. Cities were fairly uncommon in the medieval ages, and new land was hardly found. Rome had 1 million citizens... you could mass an entire army from the city itself.

 

[Luiz d'Artayn]

I've skipped over the last coupla pages ...

... but I didn't see this point mentioned about Byzantium.

Part of their system of payments for military service wasn't hard cash, but guaranteeing and extending the rights of ownership over smallish parcels of land for the "peasant/commoner/farmer" who were called up in times of conflict and formed by far the bulk of the troops.

Part of the reason for the decline of the Byzantine Empire (amongst many, many other things) was the gradual decline in the number and morale of these common soldiers ... because over a long period of time various new policies eroded these land rights, and land ownership ended up in the hands of fewer and fewer, richer, figures, and not the common man. So the "carrot"/breeding-ground, whatever you like to call it, for the bulk of the armed forces diminished, and the Empire was increasingly forced to use expensive and unloyal mercenary armies.

The decline of Byzantium is one of the true tragi-comedies of history (much more so than the Roman Empire IMVHO) ... if you are at all interested in the story of the Byzantines, John Julius Norwich's three books on the subject are informative and entertaining reading (particularly because of his ability to really get inside the differing *character* of each of the major leading figures in Byzantium's history).

 

[Errant]

IMHO...

I lean toward the opinion that limiting the abilities of D&D societies to the equivelant of medieval europe handicaps more than it helps. Think bigger population bases & stronger, more efficient economies.

IMC, these support moderate standing armies supplemented, in times of need, with feudal-type militia levies drawn from citizens required to donate service in return for the protection & benefits they enjoy the rest of the year.

I'm also of the opinion that 1st level NPCs of any type are rarer than their higher level counterparts. 1st level NPCs are barely trained, inexperienced rookies and apprentices. By the time someone has spent a half-dozen years plying their trade, overcoming the challenges of day-to-day life & (sometimes) training in the militia, they've gained experience & levels.

Even in real life, most trades or occupations have jargon to differentiate members by experience. Tradesmen start as Apprentices & may advance to Journeymen, Tradesmen or Masters. Soldiers may be Reserves, Recruits, Regulars, Veterans, Old-timers, Special Forces & so-on.

I find it natural & easy to transfer these terms to D&D level equivelants.

An army IMC consists of a few 1st green recruits just out of basic training. Many more 2nd level regulars & 3rd level veterans with time served & some combat behind them, & 4th - 5th level old-timers. And thats just the grunts! Leaders & officers are drawn from especially talented veterans or nobles that begin their careers as pages, squires & knights.

As many have pointed out, D&D armies are likely to have adventurer-types attached just as modern armies have special forces. I'd also expect magic item arsenals, just as modern armies have hitech weapons.

I gave armies magic items specifically designed for war and large units… something like ‘battle standards that funcitoned as a protection v evil, prayer spell for all those who wore country x's symbol …

Just the thing I mean!

 

[Alaric_Prympax]

John Julius Norwich

[B
The decline of Byzantium is one of the true tragi-comedies of history (much more so than the Roman Empire IMVHO) ... if you are at all interested in the story of the Byzantines, John Julius Norwich's three books on the subject are informative and entertaining reading (particularly because of his ability to really get inside the differing *character* of each of the major leading figures in Byzantium's history). [/B]

I highly recommend those books. The trilogy is a lot better then his 1 volume "Short History of Byzantium" but if you can't read the trilogy then I suggest you read the 1 vol book. They're very good reading. I'm glad someone else here has read them besides me!

 

[adndgamer]

I agree with the idea that armies aren't useful or aren't AS USEFUL in a DnD world. I mean, you get 5000 troops out on the field to do battle. A high-level sorcerer launches a couple of meteor swarms, fireballs, and all that their way and boom. Most are dead. And, if they wanted to, they could just go ahead and kill off the king or emperor as somebody else pointed out.

They could have their own little stronghold, much akin to Eliminster's tower, with all sorts of trappings. Why worry about people poisoning your food when you can create some yourself. Assassins MIGHT be dangerous if they were high enough of level.

Anyway... just my 2¢.

 

[Bob Aberton]

Adventuring parties defeat whole armies? I dunno...

I think everyone is forgetting something - namely, that knights would be Paladins in DnD terms. So, the typical fighting unit in the Middle Ages being a lance of 1 knight (paladin) and five men-at-arms (fighters), then 1/5 of any army would be paladins, bringing a whole new dimension to the field also assume lots of archers.

As soon as a wizard makes his presence known, he will be lit up by several thousand archers at once. And even assuming that each archer will only hit 5% of the time, with 5,000 archers, thats still 250 damage per round. Factor in Rapid Shot, and thats 500 damage per round. Now what would be that Concentration check to keep casting? Invisibility ends when the caster makes his presence known, remember? And all those arrows sticking into even an Improved Invisible wizard (That arrows aren't invisible, only the wizard and his gear), I'll bet he won't be hard to find...

As for clerics, I bet that that cleric will run out of healing spells long before a 10,000 man army runs out of soldiers.

As for the fighter, what use are all his feats when he's surrounded by 8 1 st level fighters? Even if he kills eight per round, The soldiers will still be hitting him 5% of the time, so the occassional hits will add up, and the fighter will be get worn down before the enemy army runs out of soldiers. And what about archers (1 st level fighters) with Precise Shot?. Or what about pikemen with longspears? Or what about both?

Same goes for rogues. That rogue'll be tumbling out of one person's threatened area right into someone else's. He, too, will be worn down by sheer weight of numbers.

The enemy army would be severely reduced, but as long as they kill the mage and the cleric, no problem...

Don't forget that that army will probably have a few hundred low level wizards, too. And the same number of clerics.

 

[mmadsen]

As for the fighter, what use are all his feats when he's surrounded by 8 1 st level fighters? Even if he kills eight per round, The soldiers will still be hitting him 5% of the time, so the occassional hits will add up, and the fighter will be get worn down before the enemy army runs out of soldiers.

Can I take this opportunity to bring up the topic of morale? Who exactly is going to charge in and attack the guy killing everyone who comes within reach within seconds? And who shrugs off even those lucky attacks that land 5% of the time (since he has 100 hit points)?

And what kind of army wouldn't panic immediately as the fireballs from "nowhere" (the invisible, flying, wand-wielding wizard) start raining down killing everyone in their large blast radius?

 

[jasamcarl]

mmadsen...

presumably in a world in which this happens constantly, the fear of magic on the basis of it being 'unknown' would not play as key a roll.

And noone other than perhaps arcady has addressed the utility of the army as a COMPLIMENT to high level adventurers as oppossed to a substitute for them....