How can nations afford armies?

[jasamcarl]

oh, and on the figher issue...

You are as usual misinterpreting hps. They don't represent actual damage, but the ability to AVOID actual damage. AC simply represents the threshold of the ability to affect hp. So the fighter wouldn't 'shrug off' numerous attacks. Add to that the fact that IT WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT TO DETERMINE WHO THE HIGH LEVEL FIGHTER IS, especially in the chaos of battle..metagame thinking..bah.....

 

[mmadsen]

Re: mmadsen...

presumably in a world in which this happens constantly, the fear of magic on the basis of it being 'unknown' would not play as key a roll.

I don't see how knowing that the rain of fireballs is "merely" an invisible, flying, wand-wielding wizard would settle your nerves. Dozens of comrades-in-arms are dying fiery deaths around you, screaming, writhing, leaving the stench of burning flesh, etc. You're effectively getting carpet bombed with napalm while in mass formation under zero cover.

 

[mmadsen]

Re: oh, and on the figher issue...

You are as usual misinterpreting hps. They don't represent actual damage, but the ability to AVOID actual damage. AC simply represents the threshold of the ability to affect hp. So the fighter wouldn't 'shrug off' numerous attacks.

He either gets "hit" 5% of the time and shrugs it off, or he never seems to get hit. Either way, he's the guy who's wading through the entire enemy army unscathed.

Add to that the fact that IT WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT TO DETERMINE WHO THE HIGH LEVEL FIGHTER IS, especially in the chaos of battle..metagame thinking..bah.....

You've got to be kidding me. He's cutting down eight of your comrades at a go, and he's untouchable. If there's one thing you'd notice on the battlefield, it's that guy -- not to mention his shimmering magic armor and sword. I'm getting out of that guy's way.

 

[Ace]

Re: IMHO...

I lean toward the opinion that limiting the abilities of D&D societies to the equivelant of medieval europe handicaps more than it helps. Think bigger population bases & stronger, more efficient economies.

IMC, these support moderate standing armies supplemented, in times of need, with feudal-type militia levies drawn from citizens required to donate service in return for the protection & benefits they enjoy the rest of the year.

I'm also of the opinion that 1st level NPCs of any type are rarer than their higher level counterparts. 1st level NPCs are barely trained, inexperienced rookies and apprentices. By the time someone has spent a half-dozen years plying their trade, overcoming the challenges of day-to-day life & (sometimes) training in the militia, they've gained experience & levels.

Even in real life, most trades or occupations have jargon to differentiate members by experience. Tradesmen start as Apprentices & may advance to Journeymen, Tradesmen or Masters. Soldiers may be Reserves, Recruits, Regulars, Veterans, Old-timers, Special Forces & so-on.

I find it natural & easy to transfer these terms to D&D level equivelants.

An army IMC consists of a few 1st green recruits just out of basic training. Many more 2nd level regulars & 3rd level veterans with time served & some combat behind them, & 4th - 5th level old-timers. And thats just the grunts! Leaders & officers are drawn from especially talented veterans or nobles that begin their careers as pages, squires & knights.

As many have pointed out, D&D armies are likely to have adventurer-types attached just as modern armies have special forces. I'd also expect magic item arsenals, just as modern armies have hitech weapons.



Just the thing I mean!

Bravo! Thats the way to do it.

 

[sword-dancer]

Re: I've skipped over the last coupla pages ...

... but I didn't see this point mentioned about Byzantium.

Part of their system of payments for military service wasn't hard cash, but guaranteeing and extending the rights of ownership over smallish parcels of land for the "peasant/commoner/farmer" who were called up in times of conflict and formed by far the bulk of the troops.

The Themata system was the fundament with which heracleius hit the persians.

 

[jasamcarl]

Well no....

For one, you are overestimating the ability of a single mage(god knows even assuming the massed army doesn't have ARCANE SUPPORT) to rain destruction over a line of battle numbering in the thousands of men. This is important becuase, much like with the use of artillary and grenades today, there is only the RISK that an infantry man will face such a fate, but a VERY good chance that he will be pegged a traitor if he flees at any sight of slaughter.

And on the fighter, you are still doing the metagame thing. Each loss of hp represents either a minor wound, a minor loss of balance, etc. The effects derive RATIONALLY from the actions and skills of the attacker. They don't percieve the high level fighter as being invincible, but instead as merely being lucky or skilled. You are assuming that they have a notion of his finite continuity, i.e. hp, but they infact don't see the aggregate. What each INIDIVIDUAL soldier is thinking is "If i flee, i could very well be cut down by my own men behind me, but if i press on the attack i have a chance at making a lucky strike."

Hitpoints are a narrative device to ensure character continuity and a certain strategic 'gamish' aspect which i also like. The aggregate 'luck' of the the fighter would not be easily percieved by individual soldiers being pressed by their, fellows, only the near misses. Only if the LEGEND of that highlevel fighter's actions become widly known will his HP find any ingame expression....

 

[Ace]

Re: Re: oh, and on the figher issue...

You've got to be kidding me. He's cutting down eight of your comrades at a go, and he's untouchable. If there's one thing you'd notice on the battlefield, it's that guy -- not to mention his shimmering magic armor and sword. I'm getting out of that guy's way.

Me too!

I think High level fighter are roughly equal to Tanks in battle field effectiveness.

Mages are attack aircraft and other classes serve other tactical roles.
Also a high level fighter is rarely found alone. A cleric can vastly increase his effectiveness.
"Gee after loseing a regiment of men his buddy touches him and he is at full effectiveness"

Scary

 

[sword-dancer]

Greetings!




You know, long before I began attending college, when I was in high school, as well as in the Marine Corps, I would check out *literally* a dozen or so books on the Roman Empire. These aren't Readers Digest ones, for popular reading, either!(smile)These are the huge 400-1200 page books that could kill someone if you bopped them on the head with one! I would read them each, very carefully, even taking notes. When I finished reading them, say a dozen or so, I then proceeded to check out a dozen or so books, like the earlier ones, on Dark Ages Europe. Then, I checked out a dozen or so books on the Byzantine Empire.
SHARK

SHARK

Could you give me the titles of the Books over the Byzantine Empire

Thanks

Sword-dancer

... but I didn't see this point mentioned about Byzantium.

Part of their system of payments for military service wasn't hard cash, but guaranteeing and extending the rights of ownership over smallish parcels of land for the "peasant/commoner/farmer" who were called up in times of conflict and formed by far the bulk of the troops.

The Themata system was the fundament with which heracleius hit the persians.
Their organization of frontier defense was very economic and flexible.

Read the descxription
in
John Hadons

Armies and Warfare of the bycantean empire.

 

[clockworkjoe]

Adventuring parties defeat whole armies? I dunno...

I think everyone is forgetting something - namely, that knights would be Paladins in DnD terms. So, the typical fighting unit in the Middle Ages being a lance of 1 knight (paladin) and five men-at-arms (fighters), then 1/5 of any army would be paladins, bringing a whole new dimension to the field also assume lots of archers.

As soon as a wizard makes his presence known, he will be lit up by several thousand archers at once. And even assuming that each archer will only hit 5% of the time, with 5,000 archers, thats still 250 damage per round. Factor in Rapid Shot, and thats 500 damage per round. Now what would be that Concentration check to keep casting? Invisibility ends when the caster makes his presence known, remember? And all those arrows sticking into even an Improved Invisible wizard (That arrows aren't invisible, only the wizard and his gear), I'll bet he won't be hard to find...


Don't forget that that army will probably have a few hundred low level wizards, too. And the same number of clerics.

Again, we have these low level archers that somehow automatically know where the invisible flying mage is. A mage with haste, fly exped retreat, and improved invisibility can fly around quite fast. At any given time only a small percentage of the army will be in range to shoot him, those that are right below him.

Besides, a smart high level mage will give the low level archers something to shoot at. Namely conjured monsters with high DR and/or illusions of spellcasters. The low level archers keep trying to kill the guy who is apprently blasting them all the while the real threat is hidden above their heads.

Remember this is whether high level characters can defeat hordes of low level warriors. NOT a discussion as to whether high level adventurers can defeat an army with hundreds of magic users and all this other stuff.

 

[jasamcarl]

Actually clockwork...

This is a discussion about whether low-level armies would be fielded for whatever reason, either to compliment high-level individuals, for administrative purposes, etc. You have artificially narrowed the topic of discussion to one of one-on-one combat effectivness in order to prove your point, absent a more subtle analysis as offered by others on this board.

The soldiers would know where do fire, because they would work in collusion with a mage who has the ability to see the invisible as well as dispel that invisibility...after that, its bye-bye invisible mage...