How can Shriekers be justly assigned a CR of 1?
- Thread starter MerakSpielman
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Ridley's Cohort
First Post
ST said:
In this particular case I would tend to agree with you. In general, any lone, isolated trap of CR ~level of the party or less has zero real risk, too -- the damage may be annoying but of no consequence without other combat in the same day. That goes for many critters, too.
That just goes to show that the book xp values are only starting points. A DM really should tweak things depending on the big picture.
jgsugden
Legend
The CR system is a guideline (at best). I've thrown CR 12 encounters at a 5th level party and watched them mop the floor with it. I've thrown two CR 6 creatures at a 10th level party and nearly gotten a TPK. CRs are only a rough guideline of what a party can handle. In the end, the DM needs to adjust a CR to account for party strengths and weaknesses.
For instance, if a party of 4 13th level wizards comes across an Iron Golem, that Golem will present a real challenge. Their spells will be mostly useless. The only way to beat it will be to use summoned monsters to try and slowly tear it down. It will use up a lot of resources. It will be a huge challenge.
On the other hand, a party of 4 fighters of equivalent level with proper weapons may cut down the golem in a single round. It will be a good warm-up combat for the big battle.
According to the normal CR system, these two parties should get the same experience because they are the same level and the creature has the same CR. If you follow that pattern, a party could face off against boring encounters for their entire career, yet sky rocket up in experience because the encounters have a high CR. This is boring and doesn't allow a party enough time at each 'power level' to enjoy the incatracies of the game at those levels.
I suggest running 'mock' battles by yourself to get a feel for how well your party can handle an encounter. Then assign a CR based upon your estimation of what the result would likely be if the party actually faced the encounter. After a few of these mok battles, you'll get a real feel when a CR is too high or too low when considered in respect to your PCs.
For instance, if a party of 4 13th level wizards comes across an Iron Golem, that Golem will present a real challenge. Their spells will be mostly useless. The only way to beat it will be to use summoned monsters to try and slowly tear it down. It will use up a lot of resources. It will be a huge challenge.
On the other hand, a party of 4 fighters of equivalent level with proper weapons may cut down the golem in a single round. It will be a good warm-up combat for the big battle.
According to the normal CR system, these two parties should get the same experience because they are the same level and the creature has the same CR. If you follow that pattern, a party could face off against boring encounters for their entire career, yet sky rocket up in experience because the encounters have a high CR. This is boring and doesn't allow a party enough time at each 'power level' to enjoy the incatracies of the game at those levels.
I suggest running 'mock' battles by yourself to get a feel for how well your party can handle an encounter. Then assign a CR based upon your estimation of what the result would likely be if the party actually faced the encounter. After a few of these mok battles, you'll get a real feel when a CR is too high or too low when considered in respect to your PCs.
Nail
First Post
Perhaps a better example is a sleeping ogre; I doubt anyone would put a CR 2 on an ogre with no limbs.....TheAuldGrump said:
And, as usual, the XP are ulimately the DMs call; with the caveat that the challenge is measured by comparison to fully healthy and equiped PCs, rather than your poor, beseiged, wounded PCs who blindly wander into things....
TheAuldGrump
First Post
Nail said:Perhaps a better example is a sleeping ogre; I doubt anyone would put a CR 2 on an ogre with no limbs.....
And, as usual, the XP are ulimately the DMs call; with the caveat that the challenge is measured by comparison to fully healthy and equiped PCs, rather than your poor, beseiged, wounded PCs who blindly wander into things....
No, I'm sticking with armless and legless - deliberately set up to be callously murdered by the PCs. A sleeping ogre has a chance to wake up. If a shrieker screams and no one can hear it what can it do? 'Bout as much as the maimed ogre.
The Auld Grump - what is the CR of warm cream cheese...?
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
TheAuldGrump said:
If that Ogre can holler loudly, I might give it a CR of 1 -- just like a Shrieker.
MerakSpielman
First Post
[reducto ad absurdum]
Therefore, two or three armless, legless ogres are just as dangerous as one with all it's limbs...
In fact, it seems odd that kobolds and goblins have the CR they do, since they can scream and yell and alert monsters nearby, shouldn't they have a CR of at least 1 as well?
As a matter of fact, virtually all creatures in the MM have some capacity for alerting other creatures in the area, usually through noise. Since alerting is all shriekers do, and they are CR 1, therefore all the other creature's CR must take this into account. Remove their ability to alert others, and all monsters should be worth 1 CR less then they are listed. Of course this would now mean that goblins and kobolds in such circumstance would be worth negative xp...
[/reducto ad absurdum]
Therefore, two or three armless, legless ogres are just as dangerous as one with all it's limbs...
In fact, it seems odd that kobolds and goblins have the CR they do, since they can scream and yell and alert monsters nearby, shouldn't they have a CR of at least 1 as well?
As a matter of fact, virtually all creatures in the MM have some capacity for alerting other creatures in the area, usually through noise. Since alerting is all shriekers do, and they are CR 1, therefore all the other creature's CR must take this into account. Remove their ability to alert others, and all monsters should be worth 1 CR less then they are listed. Of course this would now mean that goblins and kobolds in such circumstance would be worth negative xp...
[/reducto ad absurdum]
Devilkiller
First Post
Shriekers are a classic D&D monster. They deserve the dignity of being CR 1
Isn't there even a possibility that the shriekers might attract a wnadering monster of some sort? If not why even bother to have them in the dungeon? Actually, have you thought through why the shriekers would be there? Normally they'd associate with violet fungi or perhaps live off the scraps left behind by some predator who preys on the creatures which set off the shriekers. What do these shriekers live on? Shriekers are normally found in groups of 3-5, but this one has 10, so they must be well fed for some reason...
I'd suggest cutting the number of shriekers since that will cut the number of XP significantly. Throwing in some sort of small predator or maybe even a violet fungus if you think the party can handle it would also make the encounter have more of a point.
Isn't there even a possibility that the shriekers might attract a wnadering monster of some sort? If not why even bother to have them in the dungeon? Actually, have you thought through why the shriekers would be there? Normally they'd associate with violet fungi or perhaps live off the scraps left behind by some predator who preys on the creatures which set off the shriekers. What do these shriekers live on? Shriekers are normally found in groups of 3-5, but this one has 10, so they must be well fed for some reason...
I'd suggest cutting the number of shriekers since that will cut the number of XP significantly. Throwing in some sort of small predator or maybe even a violet fungus if you think the party can handle it would also make the encounter have more of a point.
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
You are being silly. Quadraplegic Ogres have more HPs than Quadrplegic Kobolds.
Seule
Explorer
Green Slime is also a classic D&D monster, but in 3rd edition it became a hazard rather than a monster. Shriekers need the same treatment, as dungeon dressing. Really, as they can't move or attack, and can't defend themselves, they are a plant that happens to make noise. You don't see standard trees in the MM, do you?Devilkiller said:Shriekers are a classic D&D monster. They deserve the dignity of being CR 1
Shriekers should be under dungeon dressings, or possibly in the description of Violet Fungus as camouflage.
CR 1 is not really appropriate. At 1st level that's a huge amount, and at 10th level it's worth nothing, yet the shriekers have virtually the same effect at either level: alerting whatever (CR appropriate) monsters are in the area. I would give no XP for shriekers, and would indeed prefer to see them out of the MM entirely. They aren't a monster.
--Seule
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