How can wizard really be an elf's favored class?

[Epametheus]

I always figured that Mailee looking freakish had to do with her (and nearly all the other iconics) having a Cha score of 8.

Elves often seems to be something/wizard in earlier editions, so I guess that's why wizard is still their favored class. Sorcerer would make perfect sense, as magic being part and parcel of the elves sounds better than the elves just liking to study it.

Druid could also work (hell, Deedlit -- the other iconic elf -- is a druid), but druids can't be chaotic good by the mechanics. Ranger is kinda iffy, since elves are naturally frail and a ranger's life is pretty rough. I would expect most elite elven warriors to be rangers, though (probably with favored enemy: orc/human).

 

[Olive]

And look who's sticking with the antiquated idea that all Rogues are Thieves.

Ah, you beat me to it!

 

[Dark Jezter]

Druid could also work (hell, Deedlit -- the other iconic elf -- is a druid), but druids can't be chaotic good by the mechanics. Ranger is kinda iffy, since elves are naturally frail and a ranger's life is pretty rough. I would expect most elite elven warriors to be rangers, though (probably with favored enemy: orc/human).

Deedlit as a druid? I don't think so.

A Japanese magazine published stats of the Lodoss cast for basic D&D many years ago, and Deedlit was an Elf (yes, Elf was a class back then). In basic D&D, members of the elf class would choose at the beginning of an adventure whether they wanted to function as a fighter, or function as a magic-user.

So, if you converted Deedlit to 3e, she would likely be a multiclassed fighter/wizard.

 

[Brennin Magalus]

I believe there should be only two elven subraces (excluding drow) with the following ability score adjustments and favored classes:

sylvan elf; -2 int, +2 dex; ranger

high elf; -2 con, +2 cha; sorcerer

 

[Felon]

Lets hear it for the preemptive rant. Gotta get in the first punch ya know. Ysgarran.

That's because there are actually far more elf-bashers out there than elf fanboys. A couple of months back Dragon featured an elven subrace called ghost elves, and all of the lamers came out of the woodwork to go on about some non-existent elf favoritism. When Book of Exalted Deeds came out, the lamers had their say about the Skylord PrC... "every WotC has some mandate to include at least one twinked elf-only PrC" was one comment I recall specifically (and naturally, the remark didn't contain any justification as to why the skylord was "twinked").

Whenever elves come up, just come to expect that Dark Jester or somebody will show up to start the elf-bashing ceremonies early. It's tradition

Personally, I think elves make poor wizards because their racial package doesn't really compliment a wizard. They make fine rangers, good rogues, decent fighters...but wizards? Bonuses to scouting skills and a penalty to Concentration doesn't scream "wizard" to me.

 

[Vocenoctum]

...and gnomes wizards (+2 alchemy, +2 vs illusions, +1 illusion DC's, innate spells...).

But sacred cows are what they are...

gnomes as illusionists WERE the sacred cow. Heck, earlier gnomes had +2 int/-2 Wis.
How they came to be bard, seems more like they were looking for someone to pin Bard on.

 

[eryndel]

gnomes as illusionists WERE the sacred cow. Heck, earlier gnomes had +2 int/-2 Wis.
How they came to be bard, seems more like they were looking for someone to pin Bard on.

Or maybe it's because that in 3.0, gnomes didn't even get the benefit of having a favored class, just a specialty. Or that looking at the Bard spell list one can find an awful lot of illusion spells.

*shrugs* who knows?

 

[Dark Jezter]

That's because there are actually far more elf-bashers out there than elf fanboys.

Spend a little time browsing WotC's D&D and FR forums if you think that elf fanboys are so uncommon. Specifically, any thread with the word "elf", "Eilistraee", "drow", or "Evermeet" in the title.

A couple of months back Dragon featured an elven subrace called ghost elves, and all of the lamers came out of the woodwork to go on about some non-existent elf favoritism.

How nice. Referring to people you disagree with as lamers. What is this, a Counterstrike forum?

BTW, I remember the thread you are talking about, and most of the displeasure was because the list of elven subraces was large enough without adding another elf subrace.

In the basic D&D rules, we have high elves, gray elves, wood elves, wild elves, dark elves, and aquatic elves.

In Forgotten Realms, it's even worse. There are moon elves, sun elves, wild elves, wood elves, dark elves, winged elves, aquatic elves, Fey'ri, winged elves, star elves, and a race of good-aligned elven lycanthropes whose name eludes me at the moment.

When Book of Exalted Deeds came out, the lamers had their say about the Skylord PrC... "every WotC has some mandate to include at least one twinked elf-only PrC" was one comment I recall specifically (and naturally, the remark didn't contain any justification as to why the skylord was "twinked").

I don't know about twinked, but there are definately a lot of prestige classes that are only accessable to elves (and half-elves). Elves get more prestige classes accessable only to them than any other race. Arcane archer, bladesinger (all 3 versions), spellsinger, elven high mage, and skylord are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

When you consider the high number of elf subraces and elf-only PrCs, I don't think it's too hard to believe that WotC has a definate preference towards elves.

On the subject of twinkiness, though, how about we bring up the old 2e AD&D suppliment The Complete Book of Elves? There's are reasons why it's one of the most infamous 2e suppliments ever, and why it was nicknamed The Complete Book of Munchkins.

Whenever elves come up, just come to expect that Dark Jester or somebody will show up to start the elf-bashing ceremonies early. It's tradition

I haven't seen Dark Jester post in this thread yet.

 

[billd91]

Sometimes the favored class should match racial abilities, sometimes it shouldn't. Having favored class match racial abilities means that the race is very good at that one thing, but not terribly good at anything else. Having them mismatch slightly (as with gnomes) makes a race better rounded, IMHO.

It's not a question of what the race is good at, it's a cultural question. Elves have wizard as a preferred class because the culture values and has a fair amount of that kind of magic in it.

And I disagree with another post that says that because elves tend to be chaotic that they wouldn't be a good fit for wizard. Being chaotic doesn't mean they can't engage in a highly disciplined art. It may just mean that they value individual freedom. It may mean that they have independent masters teaching apprentises rather than ones tightly regulated by a guild. It may mean more diversity in methodology and even special effects of the spells (different colors, odd shapes to the fireball as it erupts, etc).

 

[Felon]

How nice. Referring to people you disagree with as lamers. What is this, a Counterstrike forum?

They're not lamers because I disagree with them, as I'm fairly apathetic on the matter. They're lamers because they enjoy taking little pot-shots whenever the hint of an opportunity presents itself. They're just loaded for bear with snide remarks about elves and how much they suck and how much bias WotC has in favor of them. If people can't have a discussion about elves without wading through a bunch of elf-bashing running commentary, then that is lame.

It'd also be lame if we couldn't have a discussion about elves without people gushing about how k3wl they are, but that doesn't happen on these boards.

BTW, I remember the thread you are talking about, and most of the displeasure was because the list of elven subraces was large enough without adding another elf subrace. In the basic D&D rules, we have high elves, gray elves, wood elves, wild elves, dark elves, and aquatic elves.In Forgotten Realms, it's even worse. There are moon elves, sun elves, wild elves, wood elves, dark elves, winged elves, aquatic elves, Fey'ri, winged elves, star elves, and a race of good-aligned elven lycanthropes whose name eludes me at the moment.

Yep, there's been lots of them. So whenever they add another, we get the whole list of them rattled off again. What's the big honkin' deal about offering a lot of optional subraces anyway? From what I've seen of them, they all offer pretty balanced racial packages, and have an appropriate level adjustment.

I don't know about twinked, but there are definately a lot of prestige classes that are only accessable to elves (and half-elves). Elves get more prestige classes accessable only to them than any other race. Arcane archer, bladesinger (all 3 versions), spellsinger, elven high mage, and skylord are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

The way you're able to list all of those subraces and PrC's off the top of your head...it's hard to argue that you're not loaded for bear

When you consider the high number of elf subraces and elf-only PrCs, I don't think it's too hard to believe that WotC has a definate preference towards elves.

Now listen to yourself, DJ. You're just lending validity to what I was saying before. There's no active pro-elf agenda. There's no pointy-eared conspiracy. If people like'em it's because they're graceful and magical and superficially appealing. Nothing game-upsetting about that.

On the subject of twinkiness, though, how about we bring up the old 2e AD&D suppliment The Complete Book of Elves? There's are reasons why it's one of the most infamous 2e suppliments ever, and why it was nicknamed The Complete Book of Munchkins.

Right, how about we bring that up, because if you're going to elf-bash, there's no reason to have a sane perspective on things. Seriously, when you go to the lengths of supporting your position by dredging up an outdated supplement written by a defunct company that's, what, maybe 10 or 12 years old, do you not see how that makes you look just a little irrational on the topic? Particularly when you refer to it in grandiose terms like "one of the most infamous 2e supplements ever". I mean, in what circle was it nicknamed "The Complete Book of Munchkins"? The elf-bashing community, most likely.