How can wizard really be an elf's favored class?

[Dark Jezter]

They're not lamers because I disagree with them, as I'm fairly apathetic on the matter. They're lamers because they enjoy taking pot-shots whenever the hint of an opportunity presents itself. They're just loaded for bear with snide remarks about elves and how much they suck and how much bias WotC has in favor of them. If people can't have a discussion about elves without wading through a bunch of elf-bashing running commentary, then that is lame.

It'd also be lame if we couldn't have a discussion about elves without people gushing about how k3wl they are, but that doesn't happen on these boards.

If you say that people don't gush over elves here on ENWorld, then you either don't come here very often, or you have a very selective memory. Granted, it isn't as common as it is on WotC's official forums, but I've a fair share of elf-gush threads since I first started reading the forums in the summer of 2001.

Yep, there's been lots of them. So whenever they add another, we get the whole list of them rattled off again. What's the big honkin' deal about offering a lot of optional subraces anyway? From what I've seen of them, they all offer pretty balanced racial packages, and have an appropriate level adjustment.

Why can't we get more halfling subraces? Gnome subraces? Dwarf subraces? Why is it always elf subraces that get added?

The way you're able to list all of those subraces and PrC's off the top of your head...it's hard to argue that you're not loaded for bear

Or maybe I just have a good memory. Care to make any more insinuations or accusations about me?

Now listen to yourself, DJ. You're just lending validity to what I was saying before. There's no active pro-elf agenda. There's no pointy-eared conspiracy. If people like'em it's because they're graceful and magical and superficially appealing.

Did I say that there was a conspiracy? I listed the reasons why I believe that WotC has a definate preference towards elves, and you decided to lump me in with the tinfoil hat brigade.

Right, how about we bring that up, because if you're going to elf-bash, there's no reason to have a sane perspective on things. Seriously, when you try to support your position by citing an outdated supplement written by a defunct company that's, what, maybe 10 or 12 years old, do you not see how that makes you look just a little irrational on the topic? Particularly when you refer to it in grandiose terms like "one of the most infamous 2e supplements ever". I've never heard of a "Complete Book of Munchkins", and I doubt it's as common a nickname as you imply

That's okay. It's quite obvious that you're going to believe what you want to believe. And if anybody disagrees with you, they're an irrational, insane lamer conspiracy theorist.

 

[Felon]

Or maybe I just have a good memory. Care to make any more insinuations or accusations about me?

Well, if I was insinuating that you take the topic of elves a bit too seriously, or if I was accusing you of personalizing comments that I made about elf-bashers in general, then you've certainly offered some validation. Don't be so indignant.

That's okay. It's quite obvious that you're going to believe what you want to believe. And if anybody disagrees with you, they're an irrational, insane lamer conspiracy theorist.

Sorry, man, the reference to the 2e Elf Book from 1992 was just way out there. C'mon, admit it.

 

[Dark Jezter]

Good lord. I don't think I've ever seen a post edited so many times over the course of 20 minutes.

Well, if I was insinuating that you take the topic of elves a bit too seriously, or if I was accusing you of personalizing comments that I made about elf-bashers in general, then you've certainly offered some validation. Don't be so indignant.

Actually, you'll note that I've done little to no elf bashing in this thread. My first post was a crack at gamers who think that elves should have pluses in all the mental stats, and subsequent posts were also about gushing elf fanboys who think that elves should be point-eared embodiments of perfection like they are in Tolkien's writings.

Of course, then you came along and decided to dismiss me as a mere elf-basher.

In fact, have there been any elf-bashing posts in this thread?

 

[Felon]

Good lord. I don't think I've ever seen a post edited so many times over the course of 20 minutes.

Lol, ya caught me. I do that a lot.

Of course, then you came along and decided to dismiss me as a mere elf-basher.

Well, here's the quick recap in my POV: you started off by taking a pre-emptive poke at the fanboys, and then again, and then pulled the trifecta with the "oliphant-owning" remark. If those remarks don't give people cause to view you as an elf-basher, they're sure not representing you as an uninterested third party on the matter, is it?

Then when I commented on the prevalence of elf-bashers, you saw me mention your name and I guess decided the entire post was directed at you personally. So taking umbrage, you replied by stating the case for why elves and the people who love them merit criticism so deservedly; because of all those darn subraces and Prestige Classes, not to mention that doggone 2nd-edition TSR elf book from 1992.

Now rather than responding with some defensive remark about how I'm maligning you so unjustly, can you at least try to see how all of that comes across? Looking at it rationally, if you're neutral on the subject of elven fandom/bashdom, then you sure went to great lengths to advocate the position of the pro-bash camp.

In fact, have there been any elf-bashing posts in this thread?

More notably, have their been any elf-fanboy posts, as your initial remark predicted? What's the countdown stand at?

 

[Dark Jezter]

Well, here's the quick recap in my POV: you started off by taking a pre-emptive poke at the fanboys, and then again, and then pulled the trifecta with the "oliphant-owning" remark. Not exactly setting yourself up as an uninterested third party on the matter, right?

The "pwned" remark was actually intended to be a response to Gez's "l33t" speak comment. Don't over-analyze everything so much.

Then when I commented on the prevalence of elf-bashers, you saw me mention your name and I guess decided the entire post was directed at you personally. So taking umbrage, you replied by stating the case for why elves and the people who love them merit criticism so deservedly; because of all those darn subraces and Prestige Classes, not to mention that doggone 2nd-edition TSR elf book from 1992.

Well, when you say things like "Whenever elves come up, just come to expect that Dark Jester or somebody will show up to start the elf-bashing ceremonies early. It's tradition" I don't see how I could possibly think that you were directing that post at me (or rather, Dark Jester, who is an actual registered member of this forum).

I mean, if you're neutral on the subject of elves, then you sure are going to great lengths to advocate the position of the pro-bash camp. Rather than respond with some defensive, indignant remark about how I'm maligning you so unjustly, can you at least try to rationally see how that comes across?

Pot, meet kettle.

And would you please stop with the condescending remarks about how irrational and biased I am. After all, you were the first one to start with snide comments directed at a specific individual and claims that elf bashers are lurking everwhere, waiting to crawl out of the woodwork the second someone utters the word "elf" in a post.

Oh, and I'm not neutral on the subject of elves. Probably because in my years of gaming, I've observed that fanboy elf players on a whole tend to be much more vocal and obnoxious than, say, fanboy dwarf players or fanboy gnome players (yes, fanboy gnome players do exist ).

More notably, have their been any elf-fanboy posts, as your initial remark predicted? What's the countdown stand at?

Nice dodge, Felon. I could just as easily counter with "And where are the elf-bashers whom you claimed are much more common and prevelent than the ever-elusive elf fanboys?"

 

[Felon]

And would you please stop with the condescending remarks about how irrational and biased I am.

The intention is not to condescend. I want a rational conversation. I do not want to hear about how I've insinuated this or condescended that. It's like trying to fence with someone who keeps going "Ouch! You'r poking me!" It's not like I've failed to insert the requisite smileys at the appropriate points to indicate facetious verbal sparring.

Nice dodge, Felon. I could just as easily counter with "And where are the elf-bashers whom you claimed are much more common and prevelent than the ever-elusive elf fanboys?"

Yes yes, and I could've just said something pithy like "Look in a miirror, for its is you, Dark Jezter, who art the elf-basher!" to which you could have replied "Then it's an even count, because you're clearly an elf-fanboy!" and so forth.

But whatever. We've hijacked enough of this thread, no? I'll give you the last word.

 

[Dark Jezter]

Very well. Last word it is.

The intention is not to condescend. I want a rational conversation. I do not want to hear about how I've insinuated this or condescended that. It's like trying to fence with someone who keeps going "Ouch! You'r poking me!" It's not like I've failed to insert the requisite smileys at the appropriate points to indicate facetious verbal sparring.

To me, it looked like the hopes for a rational conversation disappeared the second you said that whenever the subject of elves came up, I'd show up to start the elf-bashing ceremonies early.

But that's the internet for you. It's not always clear whether someone's remarks are intended to be joking or insulting.

 

[CCamfield]

From a balance perspective...

None of the core races receive a racial bonus to a spellcasting attribute. It might be an accident, but it does mean that no core class has a necessary "edge" in its spellcasters over another.

 

[ElerethBerantor]

Well, favoured class doesn't represent the most common class in that race, duzzit? Otherwise Commoner would be everyones favoured.

I think FavClas are supposed to be what the greatest characters and heroes of that race tend to be.

You win the discussion.
(not being sarcastic)

 

[Vocenoctum]

From a balance perspective...

None of the core races receive a racial bonus to a spellcasting attribute. It might be an accident, but it does mean that no core class has a necessary "edge" in its spellcasters over another.

None of the spellcasters do, but Half Orc and Halfling seem tailored pretty well to their prefered classes. Gnomes & Elves aren't, but tend to more general stuff that can be useful.