How can wizard really be an elf's favored class?

[Vocenoctum]

Or maybe it's because that in 3.0, gnomes didn't even get the benefit of having a favored class, just a specialty. Or that looking at the Bard spell list one can find an awful lot of illusion spells.

*shrugs* who knows?

Specialist Wizards are a class.
Looking at the bard list, there sure are a lot of illusion spells, but you know who else has a high number of illusion spells?
Illusionists!
I like most of the changes in 3.5, but to me this seems a change for the sake of change. What was wrong with gnomes being illusionists that they needed to be changed?

I'd have given gnomes as druids a thought or two, since it would have changed the concept slightly, but still drawn on their culture. Bards though? For me, Bard is a more limited type, not a great hero, but the one that reports what the great hero's do. Illusionist has more capability, since they're still wizards. If Bard's are designed as a second tier class to buff the other players, does that reduce gnomes to the same?

But, this thread's about elves, so I'll leave it there.
What I can say is, elven rangers (in my mind) are much more legendary then elven wizards. Only problem there is the weapon proficiencies of the elf then become useless for their intended role.
"I wanna be an elven ranger, I wanna live a life of danger!"

 

[tetsujin28]

Don't be silly, the long life span would give them more wisdom. Ya know, thinking about elves as having lesswisdom before the weight of years catches up is a little scary...

That used to be true with the old 1e age charts...

 

[Epametheus]

Deedlit as a druid? I don't think so.

A Japanese magazine published stats of the Lodoss cast for basic D&D many years ago, and Deedlit was an Elf (yes, Elf was a class back then). In basic D&D, members of the elf class would choose at the beginning of an adventure whether they wanted to function as a fighter, or function as a magic-user.

So, if you converted Deedlit to 3e, she would likely be a multiclassed fighter/wizard.

Most classes (including Druid) don't even exist in original D&D; using the OVA and TV series as the basis for a conversion would probably work much better than the original character sheets would. Going by the show, I'd convert Deed as either a NG druid or as a shaman with a couple of fighter levels. Fighter/wizard just doesn't fit with how she functions in the series.

Relating to current discussion: Gnomes being illusionists was just another sacred cow, dating back to when Illusionist was a true class in its own right instead of the sub-division of wizard that it is now. The 1E Illusionist actually had a unique spell list, but their spell list got merged with the wizard list in 2E.

Bard's a terrible favored class, though. Dabbling in it is near-useless.

None of the core races receive mental stat bonuses because bonuses in those areas are considered unbalancing, even though penalties in those areas are considered negligible.

 

[frankthedm]

There are two issues here. Favored class, and elves.

The very concept of favored class bothers me, so I just ignore it. I use the human/half elf rule, i.e. a character's highest level class is their favored one.

Elves, now. Elves are a problem for me in so many ways. That's why they aren't a playable race in my game. Of course, their natural alignment in my world is NE, and they have all sorts of nasty habits, like blood drinking, slaving, rapine, pillage, plunder...you get the picture. My elves are downright rotten. The only other alternative is to remove them from the game entirely, which I'll probably do in my next campaign.

They sound one notch worse than Melnibonians...sweet.

 

[Will]

My advice, as freelance extraordinaire (whom you have likely not heard of, sniff):

Favored class becomes 'Races with a favored class, player picks a favored class when first making the character, taking into account her history.' So the woodsy elf has ranger, and the high elf has wizard, or whatever. SO long as it's justifiable, there you go.

I also really like the racial levels from AU. Also a bit chagrined, since I've been planning on using the idea since before AU came out, damn it.

I think elves should have a handful of special race levels, with differing effects. So immunity to disease, fast heal, Cha and Con bonuses come from a 'the strength of the immortal blood' race class, and a lesser version that includes magical advancement.

 

[Gez]

D&D elves are closer to Jack Vance's "halflings" than to Tolkien's elves, IMO. The chaotic alignment is there, as well as the attraction toward magic. If D&D's elves were Tolkien-inspired, they would never have been "graceful but frail". D&D elves always had a penalty to Con, while nothing in Tolkien's writing let suppose elves are less robust than humans.

In fact, they owe more to classic tales than to Tolkien's vision. Gygax himself, in one of the Q&A threads, said so. The hobbits, though, were borrowed from Tolkien.


Not that these are not named "halflings" because they're half-sized midgets, but because their nature is half mundane and half magical. A bit like "demihuman" in AD&D. Close from mankind, but removed. Also, halfling is a very general categories, faeries, goblins, ogres, trolls, and other Vancian creatures like falloys or merrihew are all called halflings.

 

[SylverFlame]

And I disagree with another post that says that because elves tend to be chaotic that they wouldn't be a good fit for wizard.

Well, since I mentioned this, I think you're likely responding to me. As such, here goes:

I mentioned this fact as, on the whole, D&D under the written rules tends to lump types. Chaotic types, by the book, dislike organized methods. As such, the dislike of wizard training is justified. On that note, I should state that I do see what you're saying, and I should mention that it is more in tune with my idea of Chaotic behaviour.

Still, we are looking at a game element that is largely archetypical/stereotypical in nature. It shows what the great heroes of the culture and age are. For instance, the great Greek and Roman heroes (those that were central in myths) tended to be strong, have some intelligence, and were willing to fight. Surprise, surprise, these were ideals upheld by the greeks and romans. As such, if elves encourage free thought and personal expression, I feel that this is more in tune with the stereotypical sorcerer rather than the stereotypical wizard.

However, I feel I should reiterate that I see your point, and feel it is highly valid. And, as I said in my last post, favoured class is something that should be liberally houseruled by a given DM (even if that means eliminating it all together).

 

[billd91]

Well, since I mentioned this, I think you're likely responding to me. As such, here goes:

<snip>As such, if elves encourage free thought and personal expression, I feel that this is more in tune with the stereotypical sorcerer rather than the stereotypical wizard.

However, I feel I should reiterate that I see your point, and feel it is highly valid. And, as I said in my last post, favoured class is something that should be liberally houseruled by a given DM (even if that means eliminating it all together).

I can certainly see the point about sorcery, but personally I prefer the idea of wizardry for most elves. It goes along with my ideas of elven communities, elves living a long time, being excellent places to go for impressive scholarship and bodies of learning, both recorded and personally handed down from scholar to scholar.

That said, I do use sorcery as the preferred class of male drow. I think that one is almost a no-brainer because drow, since their debut in the G3 module, have had innate magical abilities. And sorcery definitely plays that up.

 

[SylverFlame]

I can certainly see the point about sorcery, but personally I prefer the idea of wizardry for most elves. It goes along with my ideas of elven communities, elves living a long time, being excellent places to go for impressive scholarship and bodies of learning, both recorded and personally handed down from scholar to scholar.

That said, I do use sorcery as the preferred class of male drow. I think that one is almost a no-brainer because drow, since their debut in the G3 module, have had innate magical abilities. And sorcery definitely plays that up.

I think the male drow thing is bang on. And your reasoning makes a lot of sense. Personally I'd go for a librarian feel, with a lot of verbal memory, backed up by the books that tend to arise when a people wish to store knowledge. But I can really see your point and think it makes perfect sense.

 

[Moleculo]

hey i was too lazy to actually read all 3 somethign pages so I thought, hey just reply. anyway my argument is, and im sure someone else made it, but just because that is the race's favorite class doesnt mean everyone will become that class. A favored class just means they are more inclined to become that class. Im sure the larger portion of elven society are commoners and other non-wizard professions, but that many dable in arcane knowledge and that a large portion become involved in some way.