hey i was too lazy to actually read all 3 somethign pages so I thought, hey just reply. anyway my argument is, and im sure someone else made it, but just because that is the race's favorite class doesnt mean everyone will become that class. A favored class just means they are more inclined to become that class. Im sure the larger portion of elven society are commoners and other non-wizard professions, but that many dable in arcane knowledge and that a large portion become involved in some way.
How can wizard really be an elf's favored class?
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Kae'Yoss
First Post
ElerethBerantor said:
Is that "(not being sarcastic)" sarcastic or do you mean it
Epametheus said:
That's because in Lodoss, they call on spirits of the world to do magic. Let's just call them what they are - the (lesser) Kami. I always thought that lodoss capures the western fantasy quite well, except from that kami magic, which is more common in eastern fantasy (in Rokugan, which uses Japan as a base rather than Europe, you have to use the Kami to do magic - or you have to use stuff like blood).
So, the best class for Deed is shugenja.
Elves and Wizards match quite well, I think. Sure, elves tend to be chaotic, and wizards tend to be lawful, but both are nothing more than suggestions, especially the wizard (elves do have an affinity for chaos, which is mirrored by their deities - they're all chaotic). You can easily have chaotic wizards (and lawful sorcerers). Since they are longlived, they see the study of wizardry as something to kill time with
. Seriously: While others might not take the path of the wizard because of years of learning, to an elf, a decade of studying the books might not seem that bad - it might just be their attention span, so they do study several years on a whim. Before I go into the whole elves-are-gods debate, I want to say that I do like elves. Most of my characters have been elves. I'd even like to have a tolkien-like noldor elf race: bonus on most ability scores, malus on none, immune to diseases. But of course, this elven race would have a level adjustment. They wouldn't be the ideal PC-race, unless you are willing to have a LA.
I just want to comment on the subrace-thing. It's true, elves do have a lot of subraces, but I have two things to say about that.
The fist thing is: So do dwarves, at least in the FR, where there are the most subraces for elves. There's also a dwarven tiefling race out there, just like for the elves.
And the second thing is: Racial diversity is an elven feature just like pointed ears and a bond to nature are! Look at Tolkien's works: We have one dwarven race, one hobbit race, but several elven races. And even in the roots of elven legend, they had a dual nature: either there where light elves and dark elves, or the elves had two sides (sometimes literally, as some elves were said to have beautyful fronts but ugly backs). It's classical: elves come in flavors.
Dark Jezter
First Post
KaeYoss said:
True. There are several dwarf subraces in FR. Shield, gold, arctic, wild, urdunnir, and gray. But the number of elf subraces (and races that have elvish blood) is about double that of dwarves, and quadruple that of halflings or gnomes.
Forgotten Realms is definately my favorite setting, but one of the only things I don't like about it is the overwhelming amount of elf subraces.
KaeYoss said:
I haven't seen any dwarf tieflings in 3e FR products. You might be thinking of tanarukks, which are orc tieflings.
Kae'Yoss
First Post
Dark Jezter said:
Elves in the FR have:
Aquatic, Avariel, Drow, Moon, Sun, Wild, Wood, Star, Fey'ri, Half-Elves, Which are 10 races
Dwarves have:
Arctic, Gold, Gray, Shield, Urdunnir, Wild, Durzagon
Which are 7 races
Isn't that far apart.
And as for too many subraces: That won't happen for me. After all, I don't have to use them.
LoneWolf23
First Post
The way I see D&D Elves, they're somewhere between Tolkien's superhuman Elves, the old style Daoine Sidhe of celtic myth and more mundane real world tribes of forest-dwelling humans.
Elves are long-lived and intelligent, with years to dedicate towards the study of arcane sciences, and their long-lived culture allows them access to arcane knowledge that have been long forgotten by younger races.
While it's true that Elves make just as good Sorcerors or Druids, the thing is that both classes tend to be limited in some aspects. Sorcerors have a limited number of spells that they know, and Druids are rather focused on the whole Nature thing. Elves, being by nature Free-Spirited and interested in varied experiences, would usually prefer the open-ended nature of wizardry, where an experienced wizard can possess a wide wealth of spell knowledge.
Elves are long-lived and intelligent, with years to dedicate towards the study of arcane sciences, and their long-lived culture allows them access to arcane knowledge that have been long forgotten by younger races.
While it's true that Elves make just as good Sorcerors or Druids, the thing is that both classes tend to be limited in some aspects. Sorcerors have a limited number of spells that they know, and Druids are rather focused on the whole Nature thing. Elves, being by nature Free-Spirited and interested in varied experiences, would usually prefer the open-ended nature of wizardry, where an experienced wizard can possess a wide wealth of spell knowledge.
Dark Jezter
First Post
KaeYoss said:
Notice that I said "and races with elven blood."
In FR we've got Aquatic, Avariel, Drow, Moon, Sun, Wild, Wood, Star, Fey'ri, Half-Elves, Half-Drow, Half-Aquatic Elf, and Lythari (the good elf werewolves). That's 13 elf subraces/elf-blooded races. 14 if you count the Ghost Elves from Dragon (although I can't recall at the moment whether or not they are FR canon).
pawsplay
Hero
Elves are what happened when Gygax said "We need some elves in here." He wasn't a big Tolkien fan himself, although he was familiar. So they're part Tolkien, part Poul Anderson, a little Moorcock, and then humanized in a lot of ways.
If 3.5 had been in my hands, I would have just gone ahead and given Wizard to Gnome and Sorcerer to Elves. That way, Gnomes could keep their illusionists, and have more of their own schtick besides "sort of elvish, but in a dwarfish way." Dwarven skill + elvish magic, but with a focus on illusions specifically. Then Elves would be spontaneous casters, reflecting that magic is "natural to the elves," which also has the nice side effect of ensuring lots of Elves have high Charisma scores.
If I were in the business of slaughtering sacred cows, I might just go ahead and give Elves two Humanoid levels. That would get them lots of extra skill points, not too many extra hit points due to Constitution penalties, and would slow their advancement. That way they'd at least have something to show for their century of childhood. A ninety year old elf can't manage 5 ranks in Craft?
If 3.5 had been in my hands, I would have just gone ahead and given Wizard to Gnome and Sorcerer to Elves. That way, Gnomes could keep their illusionists, and have more of their own schtick besides "sort of elvish, but in a dwarfish way." Dwarven skill + elvish magic, but with a focus on illusions specifically. Then Elves would be spontaneous casters, reflecting that magic is "natural to the elves," which also has the nice side effect of ensuring lots of Elves have high Charisma scores.
If I were in the business of slaughtering sacred cows, I might just go ahead and give Elves two Humanoid levels. That would get them lots of extra skill points, not too many extra hit points due to Constitution penalties, and would slow their advancement. That way they'd at least have something to show for their century of childhood. A ninety year old elf can't manage 5 ranks in Craft?
Kae'Yoss
First Post
Dark Jezter said:
OK, I forgot the Lythari, but they only count half IMO, for there can be dwarven lycanthropes, after all (and Lythari are werewolves, with just one or two differences)
And I wouldn't really count all half-elves extra. We could go on and almost double the count if I counted every possible version of half-elf.
Ghost Elves shouldn't be canon.
pawsplay said:
Not good: Elves are a core race, and with humanoid levels which would put the starting ECL higher, we'd have the problem that you can't play an elf from level 1 on, at least not without special rules (like monster classes from Savage Species). But as I said, you could do such a thing (high powers, level adjustment, racial HD) with one subrace - Noldor, if you like.
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