How Complex Do You Prefer Your TTRPG Systems In General

[Celebrim]

I voted an '8' but a lot of people would probably consider my tastes closer to a '9'. The thing is that I like a very simple and clean core mechanic but an abundance of supplemental rules for handling pretty much anything that could happen in the setting. So I want mass combat rules, crafting rules, trading and mercantile activity rules, rules for races and contests and well everything. The result is that while the mechanics for any one thing might be reasonably simple, the system itself tends to bloat up to thousands of pages of content.

Systems that I've enjoyed and admired over the years are BRP and its close cousin Pendragon, 3e D&D and D20 generally, Mongoose Traveler, and Star Wars D6. And in general, where I go with these systems is always to add on subsystems.

Consider what I've written for Star Wars D6:

a) New regularized and balanced rules for cybernetics.
b) A supplement on narcotics and their effects.
c) Rules for the costs of operating and maintaining a spaceship, both per hour and over a long period (how regularly you need maintenance and overhauls, for example) and the effects of wear and tear on space craft.
d) Effects of exposure to vacuum.
e) New rebalanced rules for combat with capital ships.
f) New rules for hyperspace navigation, including extensive rules for what happens when a jump goes wrong.
g) Rebalanced weapon lists, and rebalanced customizable armor.
f) New rules for power armor that make it less overpowered while explaining why you see it less in the Star Wars universe than you do.

Why do I do this? Because it comes up in play (or will in a future episode) and existing rules are often poorly tested our thought out or are silent entirely on the subject simply because it didn't come up in the movies.

I feel like there are actually two dimensions to complexity. The first one is, "How many steps does it take to produce an answer?" I'm not a big fan of their being a ton of steps or the steps involving more than addition and subtraction. The second one though is, "Does a subsystem exist to answer a narrow question?" And I'm a big big fan of that. For complexity of the steps I like something like a 6, whereas for how broadly the system covers the space of play I like a 10.

 

[Maxperson]

This is a poll.

Using a scale of 1 to 10, where 1 is something like no-rules storygaming, 2 is something like Lasers and Feelings, 6 is something like 5E D&D and 10 is Phoenix Command, what (in general*) is your preferred complexity level for TTRPGs?

*I know that we often want different complexity for different kinds of games and purposes, but that is a much harder poll to write. So use your most preferred, or choose option 11.

If 5e is a 6, then 3e was an 8. I prefer a game right in the middle, so a 7. I love 5e, but it's oversimplified in my opinion.

 

[Professor Murder]

I put 5 and most of that comes from my typical role as a GM. DnD 5e is right now the max lvl of difficulty for a system I would want to introduce a player to, and honestly that is a cheat as DnDBeyond can do most of the heavy lifting. For any game without a good online tool on that lvl, I want something less stressful for all parties. I put Daggerheart at a 5 personally for example.

Note that a storytelling game with a low rules complexity/diversity score can still have a high cognitive load.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

For me, complexity isn't inherently a problem or good thing, it's whether that complexity is justified by creating interesting and engaging results, or whether it just leads to lots of calculation and/or rolling and/or analysis paralysis.

In far too many older (pre-2015) RPGs, there's tons of mechanical complexity, but in the end just leads to the same exact narrative place as another game could manage with far less.

Some kind of earn their complexity. Like the Friday Night Fire Fight system in Cyberpunk 2020 was pretty fiddly but tended to produce results that were fun to describe and think about and very thematic to the setting. Whereas Cyberpunk RED has a somewhat simplified system which is a bit faster and more efficient, but doesn't produce the same engaging results. It feels like 2020 got streamlined too far there to me.

Whereas 3E D&D could often bog down into endless modifiers and stacking discussions and so on, just to give a result somehow more boring than what 2E managed. Thankfully 5E got away from this.

Overall though I feel like less complex games tend to be better designed and better at achieving their goals, so I voted 5. Even 5E has some pointless or counterproductive rules (2024 totally failed to fix this, too) and I don't think being able to roll a good hit then roll bad damage ever makes what D&D is trying to do better.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I voted an '8' but a lot of people would probably consider my tastes closer to a '9'. The thing is that I like a very simple and clean core mechanic but an abundance of supplemental rules for handling pretty much anything that could happen in the setting. So I want mass combat rules, crafting rules, trading and mercantile activity rules, rules for races and contests and well everything. The result is that while the mechanics for any one thing might be reasonably simple, the system itself tends to bloat up to thousands of pages of content.

Systems that I've enjoyed and admired over the years are BRP and its close cousin Pendragon, 3e D&D and D20 generally, Mongoose Traveler, and Star Wars D6. And in general, where I go with these systems is always to add on subsystems.

Consider what I've written for Star Wars D6:

a) New regularized and balanced rules for cybernetics.
b) A supplement on narcotics and their effects.
c) Rules for the costs of operating and maintaining a spaceship, both per hour and over a long period (how regularly you need maintenance and overhauls, for example) and the effects of wear and tear on space craft.
d) Effects of exposure to vacuum.
e) New rebalanced rules for combat with capital ships.
f) New rules for hyperspace navigation, including extensive rules for what happens when a jump goes wrong.
g) Rebalanced weapon lists, and rebalanced customizable armor.
f) New rules for power armor that make it less overpowered while explaining why you see it less in the Star Wars universe than you do.

Why do I do this? Because it comes up in play (or will in a future episode) and existing rules are often poorly tested our thought out or are silent entirely on the subject simply because it didn't come up in the movies.

I feel like there are actually two dimensions to complexity. The first one is, "How many steps does it take to produce an answer?" I'm not a big fan of their being a ton of steps or the steps involving more than addition and subtraction. The second one though is, "Does a subsystem exist to answer a narrow question?" And I'm a big big fan of that. For complexity of the steps I like something like a 6, whereas before how broadly the system covers the space of play I like a 10.

I definitely think subsystems for very specific situations, ones which can produce interesting and story/setting-relevant results are a fine thing to have.

Unfortunately I think a lot of more complex games , including every edition of D&D (4E least) have subsystems which are not at all well-designed and add absolutely nothing or even actively detract, especially when they go against common sense (see 5Es overland travel rules for example).