How could the Tarrasque still possibly be alive?

[Celebrim]

Also, can't the tarrasque burrow underground if it's getting pelted from the air or something?

Does the 5e version have a burrow speed?

 

[Hussar]

I don't believe that it does actually. Hrm, I don't think I like that.

But, I do think that the idea that AD&D is somehow lacking in high level characters isn't really supported all that well. Look at Greyhawk. There's a buttload of double digit level characters floating around in Greyhawk, even going back to the original boxed set. Never minding places like Greyhawk City, or the Vale of the Mages. I don't think it's too difficult to make claims that double digit level characters are fairly common in AD&D.

Step to the left and you've got Dragonlance, which also features tons and tons of pretty high level characters. By the time you get to the end of the War of the Lance, all the Heroes of the Lance are double digit level.

Now, I realise, [MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION], that's not your particular direction of discussion. This is more pointed at [MENTION=6775031]Saelorn[/MENTION] who made different claims than you.

 

[Celebrim]

I don't believe that it does actually. Hrm, I don't think I like that.

But, I do think that the idea that AD&D is somehow lacking in high level characters isn't really supported all that well. Look at Greyhawk. There's a buttload of double digit level characters floating around in Greyhawk, even going back to the original boxed set. Never minding places like Greyhawk City, or the Vale of the Mages. I don't think it's too difficult to make claims that double digit level characters are fairly common in AD&D.

It's difficult to enumerate the population of a fictional world which isn't fully detailed. But in general, the average level of characters on Faerun is about twice that of either Oerth or Krynn. If you are a 15th level character on Krynn, you are undoubtedly among the highest level most important characters on the planet. On Faerun, a 15th level character is probably not even a regional power. He's an average local ruler or a henchmen to a more important person. The only 20+ level character I can think of in Kyrnn at the time of the War of the Lance is Ariakas, and he's phenomenally higher level than anyone else that has stats. Looking at the who's who in DL14, Ariakas just leaps out with jaw dropping stats. But on Faerun, Ariakas isn't even particularly notable and would get lost amongst the general overwhelming might. Ariakas's duel classed nature means he's got about as much XP as a 24th level character, but even if we gave him full credit for his levels (3e style) and called him 33rd level, he still would be struggling to make the top 10 on Faerun.

So, yes, there are a lot of 'double digit' characters in both Kyrnn and Earth, but double digit covers a lot of ground - from 10 to 99. The vast majority of the characters in both worlds are 15th and less. On Faerun we can be fairly sure that the number of 25th level characters generally exceeds that of the number of 20th level characters of Oerth and the number of 15th level characters of Krynn. This is not only because Faerun has far more published material, but because you generally start enumerating NPCs beginning at the top and most influential characters, and on that basis the highest level characters of Faerun are significantly higher level than Krynn and depending on which published versions you accept, also significantly higher level than those of Oerth. But even more than that on the sheer number of insanely high level characters, the movers and shakers of Faerun though having godlike power by Oerth standards (probably 10 characters are 30th level or higher) are relatively less powerful and more constrained than the Heroes of the Lance were at the end of the War of the Lance by the simple fact that there are so many potential rivals, foils, and enemies of comparable stature.

So, sure, I don't need to quibble with your characterization of Oerth having losts of 'double digit' characters. But frankly if you look at the demographics of something like Village of Hommlet and compare it to the demographics of the Haunted Halls of Eveningstar, the difference is as stark as night and day. Yes, there are a lot of 10th level characters on Oerth. On Faerun, you have to be at least scaring 20th level to be anyone.

It isn't like I'm the first person to note this. When Elimenster met with his counterparts from Oerth and Kyrnn on the pages of Dragon magazine, one of the things bemoaned by the Krynn character was just how minor the powers of Kyrnn wizards were compared to those of Faerun.

 

[WayneLigon]

I think even in FR it's pretty freaking difficult to get enough high-level characters together to take on a cr30 threat.

Once you have a group of very high level magi who are friends and allies of each other, it becomes pretty difficult not to. Discounting Elminster, you still have The Simbul and her six other sisters, and Khelben and his network of people. The Tarrasque is a even-level encounter for at least two or three of that bunch. Once you factor in teleport circles, weird special magics like The Simbul hearing any mention of her name, and fast messaging spells, Khelben should be whipping up a party of level 25+ people in a few minutes.

It'll be interesting to see, though, how the new rules accommodate such a thing and if there are some loopy loopholes for really high level characters to ignore things like how many magic items you can have attuned at once, or how many spells you can buff yourself with at any one time. Or if the new version of FR knocks down some class levels on the NPCs, which has long been a source of complaints.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Once you have a group of very high level magi who are friends and allies of each other, it becomes pretty difficult not to.

My old DM had a saying - There are some things that even Wish can't do. There is nothing that can't be accomplished with two Wishes.

 

[Celebrim]

Once you factor in teleport circles, weird special magics like The Simbul hearing any mention of her name, and fast messaging spells, Khelben should be whipping up a party of level 25+ people in a few minutes.

Considering that there are 'ordinary' merchants in FR that are 25th level fighters and practically every city on the edge of the sea of fallen stars has a city watch of some sort led by 7' tall giant of a man who is a 20th level fighter that duel wields longswords - and that's not even the real centers of power in the FR - being the Tarrasque in the FR does not strike me as being a cake walk. If you are trying to lay waste to anything bigger than a hamlet, as a best case scenario you are facing at least a party of 18th level 'PC' types backed up by scores of 10th+ characters, backed up be thousands of 4th level fighters who has low spell-caster support in the hundreds. And that's assuming you didn't make the mistake of thinking Shadowdale was a soft target.

Actually, the 5e version appears to me to be a cake walk period, as it lacks virtually every feature from any prior edition that made it even slightly scary. No vorpal teeth. No regeneration. No burrowing speed. No ability to pull down fliers. No hidden stat block presumably unknown to the players. I can't imagine it surviving any high level PCs who did anything other than try to straight up fight it on its terms.

Or if the new version of FR knocks down some class levels on the NPCs, which has long been a source of complaints.

That would be nice. The FR has several problems as a setting, but the 'The NPCs will always be more special than the PC's' has long been its biggest problem. I never really minded the fact that it threw away the trope that 'average NPCs are 0 level fighters', because Gygax had never really implemented that consistently anyway, but the setting just has so many DM PC's and Marty Sue's that its just out of hand. I think the DM ought to be allowed one at most - not at least one in every single location of the setting. Ed can't even blame the secondary writers for the problem - they are clearly just following his lead.