D&D (2024) How did I miss this about the Half races/ancestries

[Remathilis]

Huh doing some research and it seems that the term 'orc' has also been used for a 'sea monster', and has links to the term 'orca'.

Known to a lot of the public as a 'killer whale'

Hmm. Aquatic orcs riding killer whales sounds like a fun encounter....

 

[Alzrius]

Hmm. Aquatic orcs riding killer whales sounds like a fun encounter....

Or just have orc orcataurs. Or orc wereorcas.

The possibilities are endless!

 

[Maxperson]

Then don't act surprised when someone who has been following it doesn't feel the need to re-litigate 75% of the conversation.

1) Bedrock is the person I've been talking to, so make a guess

I have missed a lot, but what I have seen has been @Bedrockgames simply being against censorship and outright hostility, threats of violence and loss of income for people with controversial opinions. I haven't seen him saying that people can't advocate for change. Further, I've seen him support the idea that people can say what they want, and that others can respond with their opinions. That seems to be the opposite of your claim, so I'll let him clarify if I've made a mistake and he really is saying people can't advocate for change.

What's the difference when you declare that their reasons are invalid?

Everything. There's literally nothing about my stating that their reasons are bad reasons that is a demand for them to make it. Nothing.

 

[Guest 85555]

Who said you can't advocate for change? You can, but you should have a reason that stands up. Slavery, especially since it exists and continues to exist in 5e, is not a good reason in my opinion.

I think the poster was referring to me, but I never said you can't advocate for change.

I have missed a lot, but what I have seen has been @Bedrockgames simply being against censorship and outright hostility, threats of violence and loss of income for people with controversial opinions. I haven't seen him saying that people can't advocate for change. Further, I've seen him support the idea that people can say what they want, and that others can respond with their opinions. That seems to be the opposite of your claim, so I'll let him clarify if I've made a mistake and he really is saying people can't advocate for change.

I haven’t. I simply pointed out when someone compared their actions to protesting that protest has also been used to get art censored (but in same breath I said protest is free expression and people have a right to do it)

 

[Guest 85555]

Or just have orc orcataurs. Or orc wereorcas.

Ravenloft had were sharks so were orcas probably can work too

 

[Guest 85555]

No, because you're trying to remove the context of "kill a certain race we've deemed evil/inferior/uncivilized/bad" part of things. Pirates and burglars don't care about that. That's an aspect that you yourself enunciated and can't take away.

At dentist. So can’t really respond. But could you at least quote me so people don’t mistake what I said for your paraphrasing (because I think the paraphrasing is much more loaded)

 

[Chaosmancer]

There is a whole genre of action called heroic bloodshed that depicts killing as glorious, even redemptive. It might not depict serial killing that way, but it is all about a stylized depiction of violence (among many other themes like brotherhood). I think it would be easy to see a movie like that and object. But importantly it isn't the real world. It art. Art is reaching for something different and heroic bloodshed movies are able to use the glorification of violence to create moving and beautiful films. And I am like I said before pretty much a pacifist. But I have no problem with things like this being on screen. I think in individual cases the messaging may be bad and that is worth a conversation. I don't feel like society needs to be protected from these things and I don't think it is a moral failure for someone to make them or enjoy them

Who are they killing in those movies? Do you often have a "heroic bloodshed" movie about a white man going to africa, and mowing down black men by the dozens in a redemptive spree of violence? Do you think in a culture where white people killing black people is such a contentious issue, a movie that made "art" of that would deserve to be well-received?


And the thing is, these movies never go on repeat. John Wick spent the first movie killing a Russian Mob, but he didn't go and kill another Russian mob in the second movie, and then kill a third russian mob in the third movie. In fact, during the events of the Third movie, he is almost entirely "punching up" at the High Table. And the second movie involves him being manipulated by figures more powerful than him. The "redemptive violence" is used against those with more power, more wealth, more influence, those who are untouchable. That's why we enjoy them to a degree, that is why they can be carthatic, because the "right" people are finally getting it. The powerful who abuse their power.

Now compare that to DnD. Are the orc tribes that get wiped out the powerful social elite who are untouchable? No. No they aren't. In fact, many versions of their depictions show them as raiding to survive, living in filth, ect. You wouldn't make a film with them as the target for the redemptive violence, because they aren't the right type of villain for that.

I don't think that is what these movies are doing, which is part of why we disagree so much on all these issues I believe. Part of the discomfort is you don't know what the message is when you see it, and you may feel uneasy because part of you wonders if the director isn't a psychopath. But that also has a powerful intended effect on the viewer. When I watch movies or listen to music, I want to be impacted, I want to have an experience that takes me outside my normal experience, and I want to be moved in some way. A film like saw moves us because it is disturbing. It is also interesting in lots of other ways as there is kind of a mystery and puzzle running through the whole thing. But to be disturbing it has to cross lines of acceptable levels of violence. I would also argue this is what makes a film like A Clockwork Orange effective too (though that obviously uses more restraint than many modern torture porn films).

Now not every movie has to do that.

You are correct to a degree. I want to have an experience outside of my normal experience.

Every single day I hear stories of racism, of violence committed against the "other". I want experiences outside of that. Not to have someone lecture me about how I need to be careful in how I ask for that, because otherwise I might ruin art, make it bland, and become just like those terrible people from the past, because we have to be "realistic" instead of "idealistic".

We are currently debating whether it is okay for D&D to do what it started out doing (killing orcs and goblins in dungeons). Dark Sun isn't getting made because WOTC understands doing so would be opening a can of worms in the present culture, we are constantly having discussions about what problematic elements of art, movies, books, shows, etc have to be removed (and as I pointed out, things are being censored for modern sensibilities, shows and movies are being taken down, and there are consequences online for people who don't agree with this stuff). You can say these things aren't having an effect, but they are.

Good. It should have an effect. Having an effect is the point. If we were discussing all of this, and we weren't making a difference, then that would be incredibly disheartening.

And trying to make this about people using slurs, I think blurs the issue here because most of the time it has nothing to do with any of that (and when it does it is something much more understandable like using the term 'half' to describe a 'half-elf'----and in that case, the idea that half is a slur is deeply, deeply contested (often by the very people folks are saying they want to protect). I think it is very hard to honestly look at the state of the hobby and the culture and not see this stuff is having an impact on free expression.

Free Expression is alive and well. One of the bigges games on Steam from 2023 (#67 at its peak) was Postal 2, a game about going around and murdering people whose biggest tag is violence. Kind of hard to find a top-rated game that throws out a lot of racist slurs.... because it turns out we don't particularly want that.

And, actually, let's go with your version here for a second, and say that "half" is actually deeply deeply contested on whether or not it is a slur. I personally would rather prefer the company to take steps to avoid the slur, rather than say "well, not everyone agrees that this one is a problem, so we'll just keep doing it." Because by removing it, they are saying that they are trying. And maybe it isn't perfect, but I don't expect them to be perfect.

And no, I don't think this will lead to a hyper-santized world where nothing negative can ever be said and all art is gruel for the soul. I think that is fear mongering.

 

[Remathilis]

I have missed a lot, but what I have seen has been @Bedrockgames simply being against censorship and outright hostility, threats of violence and loss of income for people with controversial opinions. I haven't seen him saying that people can't advocate for change. Further, I've seen him support the idea that people can say what they want, and that others can respond with their opinions. That seems to be the opposite of your claim, so I'll let him clarify if I've made a mistake and he really is saying people can't advocate for change.

Bedrock, like some others on this board, has been trying to convince people that old school D&D has no inherent flaws and people are using bad faith arguments to say it does. He has framed the debate that things people find objectionable are attacks on the foundation of the game and are politically motivated witch hunts.

It's fine to say that you prefer old style play, even if you acknowledge that others can find problems with it. It's quite another to deny the objections exist and the real problem is with the person raising it.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

Hmm. Aquatic orcs riding killer whales sounds like a fun encounter....

Or just have orc orcataurs. Or orc wereorcas.

The possibilities are endless!

Ravenloft had were sharks so were orcas probably can work too

What have I done!

 

[Incenjucar]

There are so incredibly many ways to justify conflict without the "always evil" schtick. Don't involve children and give the enemy an actual evil goal or affiliation, visible using like hats with fascist symbols or whatever, and go ham.