D&D (2024) How did I miss this about the Half races/ancestries

[Chaosmancer]

Everyone focusing on orc depictions and rights...

What about bullywug depictions and rights? Why do they not get the same attention which orcs do?

• Int 7 (same as orc statblock)
• 'Nasty, brutish, and wet'
• 'Always hungry, ad thoroughly evil'
• 'they wear crude armour and simple weapons'

Some picked phrases of their description from the monster manual.

Bullywugs are also horrifically offensive and terrible. I've just flat written them out of the game though, because they aren't terribly popular, and there is just nothing of value to salvage.

 

[Maxperson]

That's not a 1E issue. That's a jerk DM issue.

No. Those were the rules. The rules directed the DM to track alignment deviations and do those things.

 

[Guest 85555]

No. Those were the rules. The rules directed the DM to track alignment deviations and do those things.

The Gm Tracking alignment used to be a bigger part of the game. Honestly alignment tracking isn't a bad idea if GMs are worried about players doing things they find objectionable or offensive. It is a very easy way to enforce behavior in game. Not saying players shouldn't have the freedom to do what they want, but the alignment system can be used to govern things like whether it is okay to kill orc babies or whether player characters can just kill something that looks like a monster on sight. And you can always use the Ravenloft powers check method too (where doing so comes with cosmic risk of being warped into a creature yourself)

 

[Frozen_Heart]

But, again, most things that weren't human were first created as scary monsters. Elves were first created as scary monsters. So why are orcs stuck as scary monsters?

And depending on the translation, culture and time "dwarf" is an insult or a creature who will curse your home. What's your point? Who cares what Orc used to mean?

Elves and dwarves were already in popular culture as similar to humans when DnD was made. While orcs/goblins were still depicted as scary monsters because that's how Tolkien did it. It only started to change due to media like WoW.

However playable half-orcs should instantly have raised eyebrows if orcs are being depicted as always monsters. If half-orcs are people, and humans are people, then it's pretty logical that orcs are people if some more thought is given to it.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

Random thought, but is having Int 7 monsters now a can of worms generally? Down at int 6 it's just animals like apes, and so clearly none sapient. Int 8 is the lower bounds of point buy and standard array, and so clearly a regular person.

But Int 7 is where all creatures like orcs and bullywugs get put. Placing them in this weird area in-between. But then as those things are all depicted as able to craft tools and buildings, you run into this problem of depicting a group of sapient people as all 'dumb, brutish, and savage'.

 

[Guest 85555]

However playable half-orcs should instantly have raised eyebrows if orcs are being depicted as always monsters. If half-orcs are people, and humans are people, then it's pretty logical that orcs are people if some more thought is given to it.

You could make an argument that it is their humanity that makes them different. That they are part monster, part human (and that is what makes them interesting to a lot of people)

I don't want to overstate the case though. I mean I like having more culturally nuanced goblins, orcs and kobolds in my settings. I just don't think this reading should be our default assumption when it comes to the half orc and whether it is a problem

 

[Guest 85555]

Random thought, but is having Int 7 monsters now a can of worms generally? Down at int 6 it's just animals like apes, and so clearly none sapient. Int 8 is the lower bounds of point buy and standard array, and so clearly a regular person.

But Int 7 is where all creatures like orcs and bullywugs get put. Placing them in this weird area in-between. But then as those things are all depicted as able to craft tools and buildings, you run into this problem of depicting a group of sapient people as all 'dumb, brutish, and savage'.

I don't see the problem. Some monsters have even higher intelligence. There is value to having monstrous threats with varying degrees of cunning and ability to communicate and persuade.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

You could make an argument that it is their humanity that makes them different. That they are part monster, part human (and that is what makes them interesting to a lot of people)

I don't want to overstate the case though. I mean I like having more culturally nuanced goblins, orcs and kobolds in my settings. I just don't think this reading should be our default assumption when it comes to the half orc and whether it is a problem

When I say 'person' I'm referring to any sapient with free will. An orc or an elf in DnD isn't human, but it is a person.

 

[Guest 85555]

When I say 'person' I'm referring to any sapient with free will. An orc or an elf in DnD isn't human, but it is a person.

I understand but I would push back on the idea that orcs are people (at least as they were understood in the 1E Half Orc entry).Though I do understand that the concept of personhood is a complicated one and not exactly settled. So I would ask if there were a race of monsters that existed on earth, and who were sapient, had free will but were naturally predisposed to hate humans and seek to harm them, would we refer to them as people? Is just being sapient and free willed enough to make something a person? Can some other drive or element be present with sapients and free will that takes them outside the realm of being a person? i realize too some of this gets into the question of free will (if you have monsters with a drive to kill humans, that isn't full free will, but humans have a drive to eat animal meat and plants and yet we are still free willed)

 

[Maxperson]

Well, that's just false. There have been studies on the facts that Black men are seen as larger, more violent, and more threatening than white men. Why is this? It isn't because of reality, it is because media portrayed them as such for 200 years, conditioning people to consider them dangerous, powerful threats.

This does nothing to disprove what I said. The news happens in the real world, and there are other considerations than the news media which I will not get into on this forum.

My point is specific to games. Studies have been done and you are just wrong.

Bias =/= action. Violence in games causing violent action is different than repeated stereotypes creating a simple and fast mental image that is biased against certain people.

Cool. What you do in games does not affect what you do in real life. Studies have been done.

Oh, I cherry picked? Interesting. So, we never have human adventurers coming from cities, dressed in armor? Tell me, which of these cities is that human man from? Neverwinter? Baldur's Gate? Silverymoon?

Could be any of them. No way to really tell from the picture.

Meanwhile, what is the standard armor for the most powerful of Orc leaders in the book? Chainmail. Not plate mail, chainmail. What does the typical orc wear? Hide. Kind of strange isn't it, where did you get that image from? Oh, that hooked sword means it is from Tolkien.

They can use any armor in the book. The non-exhaustive example stat block is...............non-exhaustive. And in any case chain mail is more than 99.99% of the humans that live in Neverwinder, Baldur's Gate and Silverymoon wear.

As for the default armor. In 1e that had a default AC of 6 which was scale mail and a shield(the picture showed them mostly using shields) or else chain mail and no shield. 3.5 defaulted them to studded leather which meant the ability to cure hides to create the armor and the ability to forge the studs used in the armor itself. 5e defaults the normal orc to hide in the non-exhaustive stat block, but says this "You can equip monsters with additional gear and trinkets however you like, using the equipment chapter of the Player's Handbook for inspiration..." so if you want your orcs to all wear plate mail, they do.