D&D (2024) How did I miss this about the Half races/ancestries

[Maxperson]

Do be fair, most DnD sapients look like they've come from the same branch of life too. Dwarves and orcs aren't really non-carbon based life.

Yeah. I didn't say real aliens WOULD be non-carbon based. I simply put that out as one possibility that was latched onto by the person arguing with me.

Even a carbon based alien would likely be very different from us in form, thoughts and morals.

 

[Aldarc]

Another thing that I am potentially worried about with the half-orc/elf move that WotC is making is that they may run into the Gnome problem from 4e D&D. There was no Gnome in the 4e PHB 1. There was a Gnome option in the 4e PHB 2. This came to bite them in the rear. I recall WotC saying with some hindsight regret that while Gnomes were played by a smaller percentage of players, that still meant that tables were affected by the absence of Gnomes in PHB 1. It did affect enough tables because it only takes affecting one player who wanted to play a Gnome to affect the whole table.

If there was something in the PHB 1 that just said "If you want to play a Gnome, pick either a Halfling or a Dwarf," I doubt that this would have helped matters at all. I understand that WotC is not getting rid of mixed ancestries, but I'm not sure if their "pick one of two pre-existing options" will necessarily satisfy people who enjoyed playing those ancestries/species/races.

At the very least, I hope that they are considering more interesting mechanical options than pick between two species, gaining their mechanics, and then calling it a day.

 

[Alzrius]

Another thing that I am potentially worried about with the half-orc/elf move that WotC is making is that they may run into the Gnome problem from 4e D&D. There was no Gnome in the 4e PHB 1. There was a Gnome option in the 4e PHB 2. This came to bite them in the rear. I recall WotC saying with some hindsight regret that while Gnomes were played by a smaller percentage of players, that still meant that tables were affected by the absence of Gnomes in PHB 1. It did affect enough tables because it only takes affecting one player who wanted to play a Gnome to affect the whole table.

If there was something in the PHB 1 that just said "If you want to play a Gnome, pick either a Halfling or a Dwarf," I doubt that this would have helped matters at all. I understand that WotC is not getting rid of mixed ancestries, but I'm not sure if their "pick one of two pre-existing options" will necessarily satisfy people who enjoyed playing those ancestries/species/races.

At the very least, I hope that they are considering more interesting mechanical options than pick between two species, gaining their mechanics, and then calling it a day.

I remember at the 2007 announcement of 4E, WotC representatives at Gen Con teased that there would be one "traditional" race not appearing in the PHB. I immediately knew it was the gnome, because there'd been a column (I think on WotC's website) where there was an offhand mention as to one particular designer arguing "passionately" that the gnome should be included in the 3E PHB, with the implication that they'd have been phased out back then if not for that particular person. Said person was also not someone on the 4E design team.

Unfortunately, I can't recall who that person was now, nor have I been able to find that article again.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Another thing that I am potentially worried about with the half-orc/elf move that WotC is making is that they may run into the Gnome problem from 4e D&D. There was no Gnome in the 4e PHB 1. There was a Gnome option in the 4e PHB 2. This came to bite them in the rear. I recall WotC saying with some hindsight regret that while Gnomes were played by a smaller percentage of players, that still meant that tables were affected by the absence of Gnomes in PHB 1. It did affect enough tables because it only takes affecting one player who wanted to play a Gnome to affect the whole table.

And it also affected whole tables when the setting they were in had gnomes. I remember this being a bone of contention even for GMs I knew who loved 4E (because it just threw a wrench into things, and it also felt like getting nickled and dimed).

If there was something in the PHB 1 that just said "If you want to play a Gnome, pick either a Halfling or a Dwarf," I doubt that this would have helped matters at all. I understand that WotC is not getting rid of mixed ancestries, but I'm not sure if their "pick one of two pre-existing options" will necessarily satisfy people who enjoyed playing those ancestries/species/races.

The problem with pick one or the other is it creates the illusion of a substantive choice, but people who want gnomes, want the gnome stats to be distinct, people who want to play half elves, half orcs, or half whatever want some distinction I think (and if you really want to play a half elf who is more human or more elven, you can just pick human or elf and say they are half but mostly take after their mother, or their father).

 

[Frozen_Heart]

Gnomes are such a fantasy staple that it seems odd to chuck them out. And really makes life hell for all the people with gnomes as a major species in their setting.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Gnomes are such a fantasy staple that it seems odd to chuck them out. And really makes life hell for all the people with gnomes as a major species in their setting.

I agree. But they have always been disliked apparently by a large number of gamers (I didn't really encounter this till going online but it does seem to be a thing). I think that also goes to show that jettisoning something to please people who don't like it can definitely backfire because the people who want it can't opt in, while the people who don't want it can simply opt not to use gnomes (or whatever the thing in question is)

 

[Frozen_Heart]

I agree. But they have always been disliked apparently by a large number of gamers (I didn't really encounter this till going online but it does seem to be a thing). I think that also goes to show that jettisoning something to please people who don't like it can definitely backfire because the people who want it can't opt in, while the people who don't want it can simply opt not to use gnomes (or whatever the thing in question is)

I wonder if it's because they're always depicted as the 'clockwork steampunk people' in a lot of media?

So anyone trying to make a tolkien-alike setting struggles to know where to put them.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I wonder if it's because they're always depicted as the 'clockwork steampunk people' in a lot of media?

I don't think so because I believe that was a less common depiction when this all started (Dragonlance had Tinker Gnomes I remember, but they didn't feel exactly steam punk to me). Maybe there is some other source though I am unfamiliar with. The main complaint I heard was they were too much in between halflings and dwarves. I also thought they had a neat niche but I think for some they were not defined clearly enough or felt like they may as well have been a type of dwarf or halfliing.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

I don't think so because I believe that was a less common depiction when this all started (Dragonlance had Tinker Gnomes I remember, but they didn't feel exactly steam punk to me). Maybe there is some other source though I am unfamiliar with. The main complaint I heard was they were too much in between halflings and dwarves. I also thought they had a neat niche but I think for some they were not defined clearly enough or felt like they may as well have been a type of dwarf or halfliing.

My main introduction to gnomes was through WoW, and they're the definition of tinker gnomes. To the point where they use steam powered mechs as war machines.

 

[Incenjucar]

Gnomes need some strongly-written media focused on them to break through the bias against them. The gnomes from Critical Role kind of cancel each other out, and David the Gnome is not the dungeon delving icon sort.