I never said they were the same lore? But orcs have been an incredibly common enemy in the game. The lore I found for Mystara states they are incredibly common in Mystara, and you ran FR for a decade. Even if the lore is different, it is really weird you keep saying that you NEVER looked into orcs before this thread.
Why? The only thing I have taken from the humanoids in Mystara is the
blue knife.
The PC wanted a weapon that could transform from a warhammer to a glaive. I inserted the backstory, that the
blue knife was this weapon, found/stolen by his parents and left to him when they disappeared, but more so the
blue knife in my campaign was a shard of the Rod of 7 Parts and proof of a cosmos beyong Mystara given that it was made from no known material.
Oh, so it isn't that you never used orcs before, or people didn't encounter orcs before, you just never bothered to read anything about them before using them. They were simply in the game as disposable enemies and you left it at that.
Yes, plenty monsters with intelligence are simply in the game as disposable monsters. They're just not that important unless they're important to the PCs.
OKay, but this gets very confusing to me.
I will tell you what is confusing for me.
I never did a deep dive into the lore between the Elves and Gruumsh. You mentioned a couple things in your post which paints the Elven deity as pretty suck-y and provides understanding, if not justification, for Gruumsh's actions. I propose a whole bunch of ideas based off that lore you provided which I'm assuming is correct. I would have never come up with those ideas were it not for the lore you gave.
Given we are dealing with deities and specifically the orc deity, I'm thinking orc or half-orc PC or PCs is necessary to pursue such a game (cause I'm into character goals) and it would be a higher-level play given my ideas propose some drastic changes in the cosmos.
You then want to know why I never inserted these ideas ever in my campaign despite the fact that I do not have orcs or half-orcs PCs and that I haven't done many high-level campaigns. But still you want to know why I didn't derail my current campaigns and my current PC's goals because the PCs encountered orcs.
Can you not see the disconnect with your line of enquiry?
We have brought up the half-orc is problematic. You responded "aha! The Mark of Gruumsh makes this not problematic" So, immediately, you are assuming that a level 1 character would need to know about The Mark of Gruumsh on some level, because it is a fundamental part to this racial write-up and a reason that "civilized" folk, let's say "are cautious" around half-orcs.
So they do not know they are made in their creator's image (Mark of Gruumsh) but are aware of their own religion, history as you stated below?
Do you think the orcs don't know their own religion?) and would require an orcish character... because only orcs can possibly care about the plight of orcs and how they have been mistreated?
But then, I responded to how the Mark of Gruumsh doesn't really solve the problem. Because if you see "Gruumsh is evil and hates everything" as propoganda, as the story told against Gruumsh, and look at his motivations.... it is trivially easy to see him as a heroic figure. To which you then proposed this entire campaign of redemption for Gruumsh and the downfall of the elves, and presented it as though that was the entire point of Gruumsh's forty year old lore, was to allow you to make that story, and that campaign.
No, I said the lore inspired me to come up with that redemptive campaign for Gruumsh.
Why can't a follower of Kelemvor, who believes in balance and judgement, look upon the situation and go "that's messed up"?
Because a PC of Kelemvor will likely pursue Kelemvor-business. I have TWO such clerics in my campaign.
One was reforged after death. He looks the same, but only has shattered memories of his previous life, with no emotional connection and has been tasked to kill someone by Kelemvor. I only provided the reason why Kelemvor wanted this individual dead, the rest was all the player's idea.
Another suffered a crisis of faith and has since found his place within the order as a paladin rather than a cleric. Again all player.
My players will not be interested in the Gruumsh redemption storyline because they are not playing orcs or half-orcs.
Meanwhile, none of this actually gets back to the initial point, which is that the "Mark of Gruumsh" is a thinly-veiled attempt at reducing the obvious racial overtones in how they are talking about a mixed race person in the half-orc entry.
You see it as something bad, I do not. I see the Mark providing a basis for the rage whereas before orcs were just quick to temper for no good reason. It is not unusual to me for a creator to instil some part of themselves into their creation. We do that wittingly or unwittingly with our own kids.
