D&D 5E (2024) How did I miss this about the Half races/ancestries

[Justice and Rule]

There's a difference between wanting new tropes to have a chance and wanting old tropes to no longer be used. It's not a zero sum game, and we don't have to disallow (or socially discourage) the use of older narrative devices in order for other ones to be in use. Addition, not subtraction.

Yes, but there are also tropes that should just fade away. Racist tropes, for example. By your idea, you should just keep those, but add new tropes to the ecosystem. I don't think that really fixes the problem of having racist tropes.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Not quite what I am trying to say. I worry about external ideological constraints on art, I am a lot less concerned about a writer, designer or publisher who is genuinely choosing to explore these topics. I don't know the game but I saw the marketing for something for Coyote and Crow and that seemed to be about specifically avoiding things the writer thought was racially harmful, being welcoming etc. I don't know if I would agree or not with all of their viewpoints in that regard as I haven't read the product but to me this is no different than Tolkien making art that reflected his Catholicism, Lewis making art that reflected his Protestantism, and Pull Pullman making something that reflected a more atheist or agnostic world view as a response to someone like Lewis. And I especially don't have a problem with a writer sitting down, thinking its the right thing to do, so pursuing that course (so if someone wants to make a game intended to promote veganism or pacifism, I have no objection). For me it is more about the state of the community and culture and the way this is starting to feel more mandatory if you don't want to have your stuff run through the ringer online, and potentially be subject to it yourself (it is more involved and complex than that but I am trying to quickly make my point without getting bogged down). I think writers choosing to engage that stuff is fine, choosing not to is fine. And I would generally hope we start to see a more charitable approach to interpreting what designers are trying to do

Right but... Do you think that no one influenced Lewis or Tolkien? That neither of them looked out at their society and considered a work in the context of their audience? The thing you want to happen is the artist ignoring the community, or the community being silent so there is nothing to ignore. Because any other situation ends with the external constraints. Tolkien can't write a Catholic work he thinks the Catholic church would disapprove of.

So, to me, as an author and part of the creative community, it really just sounds like you just don't want people to express opinion on art, because that opinion may be negative. Because making a game that people don't enjoy playing isn't making a good game. So you HAVE to consider the community. It is inevitable.

I can understand if you haven't seen it, being skeptical. I don't know how I can provide evidence though without putting names and companies down how probably don't want attention drawn to themselves (people who are struggling with this are not likely to want to intensify that struggle by being named on a thread-----heck I am not even a huge fan of participating in threads like this but I think the issue is so important I have a responsibility to weigh in).

What I can say is I do personally know designers who struggle. I've seen designers struggle as I have followed them on blogs or social media (and forums) and I have also seen cases where I can't say for sure, but it appears they are struggling. What I would say here is, fair enough, you haven't seen evidence. If you told me something was going on, and I saw no evidence for it, I would be skeptical. So the only thing I can add is in the future as these things come up, see if being attentive to this possibility reveals evidence or a lack of evidence in your view.

I mean, I'll keep an eye out for anyone who says "I'm really struggling because you won't allow me to put racist content in my game" but... again, I don't see this happening. And while I'm not deep in the community, it seems that if it is something that is solely visible to people who are deep in the community, then it is often constrictions because someone was going to do something easy they realize is obviously problematic, and struggles with that.

It could be an unfair interpretation, but until a company is willing to come forward and state that, there is little evidence to sway me one way or the other.

 

[Faolyn]

There's a difference between wanting new tropes to have a chance and wanting old tropes to no longer be used. It's not a zero sum game, and we don't have to disallow (or socially discourage) the use of older narrative devices in order for other ones to be in use. Addition, not subtraction.

I saw this phrase once: you can't make a cake with rotten ingredients.

Bigotry is a rotten ingredient. RPGs are better without that baked in. Especially since you can sprinkle that onto your own slice at home as much as you like.

 

[Hussar]

I saw this phrase once: you can't make a cake with rotten ingredients.

Bigotry is a rotten ingredient. RPGs are better without that baked in. Especially since you can sprinkle that onto your own slice at home as much as you like.

But you have to understand the fundamental problem here.

A complete and utter refusal to accept that any trope that one happens to like could possibly be racist.

That’s why this conversation goes around and around in circles. There is a complete and total refusal to accept the basic issue that you or I have here.

We simply are no longer speaking the same language.

What I really wonder though is don’t people get tired of being wrong? Does anyone think that twenty years from now, people will say, “Hey, remember when DnD had gender based stat restrictions? We should do that again.” Or “Remember when the art was sexist and misogynistic? Let’s bring that back.” Or “Remember when we used Jim Crow era languages in the game? We really should bring that back.”

Don’t you get tired of being on the wrong side of history?

 

[Micah Sweet]

I saw this phrase once: you can't make a cake with rotten ingredients.

Bigotry is a rotten ingredient. RPGs are better without that baked in. Especially since you can sprinkle that onto your own slice at home as much as you like.

So no published settings should ever feature any sort of bigotry or other -ism of a similar sort, from anyone towards anyone else, no matter the circumstance? Is that where we are?

 

[Guest 85555]

But you have to understand the fundamental problem here.

A complete and utter refusal to accept that any trope that one happens to like could possibly be racist.

That’s why this conversation goes around and around in circles. There is a complete and total refusal to accept the basic issue that you or I have here.

We simply are no longer speaking the same language.

What I really wonder though is don’t people get tired of being wrong? Does anyone think that twenty years from now, people will say, “Hey, remember when DnD had gender based stat restrictions? We should do that again.” Or “Remember when the art was sexist and misogynistic? Let’s bring that back.” Or “Remember when we used Jim Crow era languages in the game? We really should bring that back.”

Don’t you get tired of being on the wrong side of history?

This is so far from what I am saying and you are attacking me and characterizing what I am saying in exactly the way I was pointing to in my posts made to chaosmancer about the current state of hobby.

 

[Micah Sweet]

This is so far from what I am saying and you are attacking me and characterizing what I am saying in exactly the way I was pointing to in my posts made to chaosmancer about the current state of hobby.

It does seem a little personal.

 

[Justice and Rule]

So no published settings should ever feature any sort of bigotry or other -ism of a similar sort, from anyone towards anyone else, no matter the circumstance? Is that where we are?

Given that no one is actually advocating for that, this is a strawman, and a bad one at that. It doesn't actually address the very simple and obvious problem identified with your own argument.

 

[Faolyn]

So no published settings should ever feature any sort of bigotry or other -ism of a similar sort, from anyone towards anyone else, no matter the circumstance? Is that where we are?

Is that what you've taken away from everything I've said on the subject?

 

[Belen]

I am re-reading the War of the Lance. The books would be quite different without half-elves.