How do gods make themselves known?

[freebfrost]

Nightfall would be proud

He'll be prouder if I ever get around to finishing my write up of the city of Lave...

 

[HalfOrc HalfBiscuit]

How do gods make themselves known?

While I'm no expert by any means, I think you'll find that a number of mythologies have gods addressing humans directly:

In Genesis God speaks directly to Adam, while the Serpent speaks to Eve.

In Egyptian myth, Re becomes the first Pharaoh.

In Greek myth, Zeus was often very "hands on" .

So I would be inclined to suggest that you have messengers of the gods actually walking the Earth. Of course, there may also be "messengers of the gods" who are in fact no such thing at all ...

 

[Einan]

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=80

That's how gods make themselves known.

Einan

 

[BiggusGeekus]

How smart are these gods? I mean, do they know any first aid or agriculture or anything like that?

Honestly all I can think of is that gods will reveal themselves based on their own personal nature. A god of war might appear to a caveman in a dream and show the advantage of fire-hardend spears. A god of healing might actually show up in person to show the necessity of applying pressure to bleeding wounds. etc.

 

[RangerWickett]

These vast beings rarely think in the way mortals do; they are more... diffuse... more... nonlocalised. Mosrtals interept the foggy visions, the signs and protents received from these beings, according to the capacity of their tiny, localised mortal; minds; they grant names and agendas to their interpretation, and as long as they follow a conceptual and behavioural road which is, in general, in affinity of that great being, they continue to recieve its "gifts".

You're a fan of Babylon 5, aren't you?

 

[Lanefan]

How do gods make themselves known in real life? Good question, with some fine answers already posted here.

How do gods make themselves known in a D+D setting? Any d**n way they choose!

Lanefan

 

[RangerWickett]

I'm digging this thread too.

To better help my game's needs, here's the general set up. Whereas many worlds are created by gods intentionally, this world's creation was accidental. This is a strange mix between actual astrophysics and the magical. In an unseen part of the multiverse, an eternally slumbering god lay dreaming when a star went supernova. The star collapsed, but the debris was shaped by the dreams of the sleeping god into dozens of worlds. The people of her dreams became real, and while most of the worlds decayed when her dreams shifted, one world actually formed around her massive celestial body, allowing it to endure long enough for the confused people born from her dreams to create societies of their own.

But this new world is imperiled. Though it is kept warm by the ambient heat of the nebula created by the supernova, its orbit is unstable, and it crosses paths with dead planets that blossomed and died with the sleeping god's imagination. Already the world is wracked by celestial catastrophes every few years, and soon the whole world will be torn apart, dissolving back into dream.

The plot of the campaign will have several stages, starting at local mysteries within the PCs' home town, which tie into threats from the outside world caused by powerful beings claiming to be gods, which reveals what true danger the world is in, for if the god who dreamed them into existence dies, they will cease to be.

I don't exactly know how I want it to work, but the PCs will be in a position to use something called The Scroll of the Gods to bind other gods to their world, which will grant them the power to re-align the 'solar system' their world exists in so that their planet isn't torn to bits by the tidal force of a neutron star.

I don't really want the PCs to become gods themselves, though (at least not all of them; it might be cool if one of them does). I want them to find other beings, and raise them from being merely worshipped or revered to being true gods. Maybe they'll learn that gods can reshape reality, so they need the loyal will of several gods to affect change across an entire solar system. Also, the plane will be suffering from the assault of demons and devils who see it as a new battleground for the Blood War, which means the PCs will want to find a way to keep extraplanar nasties off their homeworld.

I like the idea Shades of Green presented, that most 'gods' will be perceived intangibly, and that mortals simply won't understand many of them. This might be a disincentive to the PCs becoming gods themselves. They'll know that the world needs to be saved, but also that, if they do the saving, they'll cease to exist as they are. Other 'gods' than the ones the PCs create will exist, but only the ones whose names are on the Scroll of the Gods will have the power to reshape reality.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

Ranger,

Here's a webcomic you might like

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_Gods_of_ArrKelaan/index.php?p=1784

The idea is that slightly-in-the-future humans and aliens are transported to a D&D-like world and imbued with divine powers. The protagonist is Ronson, who doesn't really want to be a god and just wants to be left alone.

It might inspire you if you want human-as-divine.

 

[OptionalRule]

In the real world, how did Sumerians come up with Nergal, Ereshkigal, and the rest of the Annuna? When did the Egyptians realize Osiris was floating around in the stars? How did the first Greek priests decide to start worshipping Zeus and company?

In fantasy settings, such as Dragonlance, we sometimes get a story of how people re-encounter lost gods, but aside from a vague recollection of the prehistory of the elvish deities in Forgotten Realms's "Evermeet," I can't think of any stories about initial first contact between mortal and divinity.

In terms of traditions about how cultures came to realize their gods it usually involves either visions, visitations, or stumbling across them. Visions are quiet frequent with oracles in ancient cultures saying they had a vision of a particular god, weather they be dreams or induced by something it varies. Visitations are quiet common as well with tons of stories of gods coming to earth and vexing we poor humans, Zeus was particularly randy and liked to visit the ladies in this way. Stumbling across them is also a common occurance so you have heroes ascending mountains, going to hidden grottos, or descending into the earth to sometimes finding a god and being tested or sometimes seeking one out for special favor. In each culture these are the most common ways they say they discovered their gods.

Analyzing it from a popular culture point of view of how did particular god names become common, who knows. Why do we say forum instead of messageboard, why Blog instead of super-fantastic-posty-drama-thingie? Who knows.

When you start to see Gods in many fantasy settings you get a much more direct approach, in The Realms or Middle Earth they quiet often show up in some dramatic way and flat out say "My name is Eru and I'm a god". More dramatically people get caught up in a war the god is raging or directly attacked.

I bring this all up because my next game is going to take place at the cusp of prehistory. Mortals exist, and some indeed worship gods, but more in the real-world sense of holding beliefs, than in the D&D sense of casting spells. But the world will come to need true gods, and the PCs will run across a few potential candidates. Some will be powerful mortals, others will be demons who want to rule, and some might be even stranger entities.

The question is, what makes a god? Is it your own power, or is it the belief of others? If the former, how do you reveal your power to potential followers. If the latter, what sort of legendary person would be revered enough in life that his followers would proclaim him a god?

As to what makes a god in a fantasy setting, I think you've got your work cut out for you. I don't think there can be a standard answer for this and it's an important part of world crafting for the GM to answer this. RPG mages sit around tossing powers about that would give many legendary gods a run for their money. It seems the standard fantasy answer is power way beyond mortal comprehension. As a flavor item people often say gods are fueld by belief but it has little real application in a game world. By this standard an egyptian pharoah would be a god in name and in fact.

To me if a mortal can contest with them, even an epic one, they aren't a god. Demi-god perhaps but in a world where any number of dragons or outsiders really exist it seems you'd have to go well above and beyond to earn the title god.

Or you could say the threashold is low. "God" could be relative, more like a guardian spirit. You could have a dragon considered a god for a particular city if it did favors for it's worshipers. God could be the title for any patron being worshiped (or feared) by a local population that is petitioned. I don't think ancient man drew an intellectual line between powerful spirit and god very often.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

if the god who dreamed them into existence dies, they will cease to be.

So the great quest of the campaign is to find/create a new Dreamer, to take over the support of the world?

I don't really want the PCs to become gods themselves

Such a god-laden story, and no way to become a god oneself, would disappoint me as a player somewhat, though naturally that's just one player's view, and I've certainly played in fantastic games with minor aspects that didn't go as I might have wished.

In any case, I was suggesting that as a campaign finale. i.e. the final battle involves defeating the BBEG, after which a PC is made into a god and able to make everything right, fin. If you plan on this only being one story arc in a longer campaign, then having any PCs become gods would certainly be problematic.

they'll learn that gods can reshape reality, so they need the loyal will of several gods to affect change across an entire solar system.

But how do you earn a god's loyalty?

They'll know that the world needs to be saved, but also that, if they do the saving, they'll cease to exist as they are.

An interesting take, though one that's always felt a bit weak personally. I imagine a god as more than mortal. Encompassing all that is mortal, and a great deal beyond. But dislike the idea that gods are completely alien. Without any personal connection, why would they care?

Other 'gods' than the ones the PCs create will exist, but only the ones whose names are on the Scroll of the Gods will have the power to reshape reality.

I had thought that only the Dreamer was a true god, and the PCs were going to be finding/creating a replacement. But it seems then that the Dreamer is rather some kind of overgod? What does it mean to be on the Scroll of the Gods? Who created it? Is it's only purpose to replace the Dreaming God?