How do gods make themselves known?

[RangerWickett]

First, thanks for the critique. It's good to get another person's perspective now, before I start down a path that may potentially irk the players.

So the great quest of the campaign is to find/create a new Dreamer, to take over the support of the world?Such a god-laden story, and no way to become a god oneself, would disappoint me as a player somewhat

You raise a good point. I probably will allow the PCs to become gods, but I think I might set it up so that there are X number of slots to fill on the list, and each slot must correspond to a necessary element of reality, so the PCs can't qualify for it all by themselves.

Also, the goal is not to find a new dreamer, because the world is just the creation of the one sleeping god, and it can't exist without her. Actually, think of her more as, yeah, an overgod, an entity that is unaware of the world of mortals. It is the anima, the spirit, the excuse for why the world exists. They could potentially try to waken it, but I don't think that would go well; she likes her beauty sleep.

In any case, I was suggesting that as a campaign finale. i.e. the final battle involves defeating the BBEG, after which a PC is made into a god and able to make everything right, fin.

Actually, I'm thinking their first attempt at fixing the world will be rushed and half-assed, and they'll screw up or be betrayed by someone who wants to be a god, which might lead to a plot arc afterward. The PCs who became gods would have some mild divine powers, which would help, because the world would be majorly screwed up, basically going from a dream to a nightmare.

But I dislike the idea that gods are completely alien. Without any personal connection, why would they care?

You're right. My reason for that position was so that I could discourage the PCs from grabbing power as gods, but I realize that's not necessary if I end the campaign at the right moment. Though, of course, there's always the chance that other heroes might try to slay the gods if they are cruel.

What does it mean to be on the Scroll of the Gods? Who created it? Is it's only purpose to replace the Dreaming God?

The Scroll of the Gods is like a contract, saying that these X entities have bonded themselves to this world, that they choose Y as their portfolios, and that they receive Z powers. I'm still not quite sure what it is, though, or how it works. I just like the name "The Scroll of the Gods," and want to use it.

I figure there will need to be some special circumstances during which the scroll can be scribed, so the PCs only have one chance (or perhaps two).

One of the elders of the PCs' home town will set out on a quest at the end of the PCs' childhood, and a year later or so, they'll receive a message on a howling wind from him, saying "I've found the scroll of the gods! But now you have to find me!" or something similarly motivating. The truth is that this town elder found his way to Pandemonium, to Howler's Crag (detailed in the 3.5 DMG), and now he's lost on the great wheel, unable to get back to his home plane because it doesn't exist like most worlds exist.

After finding out what it was he was looking for from the other elders, the PCs will hopefully set out to try to find him, which will take a while. They'll get clues, and help from so-called gods and powerful people around the world, dealing with other threats along the way, with the Scroll as a dangling carrot leading them on. Eventually they find out what it is, and the next part of the campaign has them traveling across the planes trying to locate this guy who knows where the Scroll is. Then they have to get the Scroll. And then things get interesting.

If you're familiar with Sagiro's storyhour, think of the huge arc involving the Crosser's Maze.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

A lot of cool ideas, Ranger. Let me throw some more thoughts out there.

Based on your thoughts regarding a failed first attempt at fixing the world, as well as wanting to allow potential PC deification while at the same time requiring the party to also promote one or more outsiders to Godhood, you might consider structuring the overarching plot in three parts.

Part 1: PCs learn of the world's plight, and quest to recover the Scroll of the Gods.

Part 2: PCs read the Scroll of the Gods and learn that in order to prevent the coming Apocalypse, they need to raise up four Gods through a powerful ritual. (The new Gods might represent the cardinal compass points, the elements, or any other meaningful set you prefer.) They quest to fulfill the requirements written on the Scroll, but ultimately fail.

Failure could be due to one of many reasons: One of the other God-Elects betrays them. Or can't control the magic. Or a demon attacks during the ritual. Or a God-Elect loses confidence in her own abilities and fails to bring the necessary will to bear. For whatever reason, although some of the potentials Ascend to Godhood, one or more of them fail, and the botched ritual screws everything up.

Part 3: The World as Nightmare. Now the party (with one or more with a splash of divine power as their Godhood develops,) must quest once again to fulfill the requirements of the Scroll, all the while dealing with the ramifications of the earlier failure.


That said, a bit of directed response to your thoughts:

I probably will allow the PCs to become gods, but I think I might set it up so that there are X number of slots to fill on the list, and each slot must correspond to a necessary element of reality, so the PCs can't qualify for it all by themselves.

*nod* A great idea. I can see a lot of great RP potential in trying to find candidates for Godhood outside the party. At the same time, an ambitious party member might decide he wants to be one of the Chosen as well, fulfilling a long-term desire of some players.

You're right. My reason for that position was so that I could discourage the PCs from grabbing power as gods, but I realize that's not necessary if I end the campaign at the right moment. Though, of course, there's always the chance that other heroes might try to slay the gods if they are cruel.

Indeed. And it may be, if they are betrayed by others who become Gods, that the party will wind up having to do the slaying themselves. I like the idea that the PCs become responsible for a "bad" God (not necessarily evil, just bad for mortals,) and in Part 3 need to deal with that.

Perhaps a new God cannot be created while a previous one exists. So if the God of the North is unsuitable, the party would need to kill or convince the God to step down before enacting the ritual a second time. Even more interesting if the God isn't evil, so the party can't just kill him...

The Scroll of the Gods is like a contract, saying that these X entities have bonded themselves to this world, that they choose Y as their portfolios, and that they receive Z powers. I'm still not quite sure what it is, though, or how it works. I just like the name "The Scroll of the Gods," and want to use it.

Interesting. My first thought reading this was that it is a manifestation of reality. It's the physical representation of the laws of Godhead. A neat concept.

I figure there will need to be some special circumstances during which the scroll can be scribed, so the PCs only have one chance (or perhaps two).

That works. But I also like the idea of the scroll being usable by anyone with the power, knowledge, and proper materials. Perhaps there are already a few Gods lying around from using the scroll centuries ago?

If you're familiar with Sagiro's storyhour, think of the huge arc involving the Crosser's Maze.

I am, and it's a great feel to shoot for.

 

[Shades of Green]

You're a fan of Babylon 5, aren't you?

Yep, and the "non-localized phenomena" quote is one of my favorites

As to what makes a god in a fantasy setting, I think you've got your work cut out for you. I don't think there can be a standard answer for this and it's an important part of world crafting for the GM to answer this. RPG mages sit around tossing powers about that would give many legendary gods a run for their money. It seems the standard fantasy answer is power way beyond mortal comprehension. As a flavor item people often say gods are fueld by belief but it has little real application in a game world. By this standard an egyptian pharoah would be a god in name and in fact.

To me if a mortal can contest with them, even an epic one, they aren't a god. Demi-god perhaps but in a world where any number of dragons or outsiders really exist it seems you'd have to go well above and beyond to earn the title god.

Or you could say the threashold is low. "God" could be relative, more like a guardian spirit. You could have a dragon considered a god for a particular city if it did favors for it's worshipers. God could be the title for any patron being worshiped (or feared) by a local population that is petitioned. I don't think ancient man drew an intellectual line between powerful spirit and god very often.

In "mechanical" D&D terms, a god is anything that can grant divine spells and/or powers to characters; in a world where gods grant such powers, or atleast performs acts of powerful magic (miracles), contrary to the real world, people would probably find it hard to believe in gods that do not have spellcasting priests and can't grant any powers or perform any miracles. Ofcourse, this could be circumvented cery easily - a demon or beholder could teach spells to wizards or sorcerers, and thus they'll be able to be his "clerics".

Still, I'd like to have a game mechanics for lesser planar beings (demons, devils, celestials, very powerful elementals and so on) as well as other very powerful beings (ultra-ancient dragons and the more powerful beholders) granting some kind of powers to their followers - even in a world with very clear gods (as most official D&D worlds are), I'd still want the option for people to form beholder-cults and/or make pacts with powerful devils.

 

[OptionalRule]

In "mechanical" D&D terms, a god is anything that can grant divine spells and/or powers to characters; in a world where gods grant such powers, or at least performs acts of powerful magic (miracles), contrary to the real world, people would probably find it hard to believe in gods that do not have spell casting priests and can't grant any powers or perform any miracles.

I'm not sure I agree here. God's are a flavor element to explain a clerics ability in DnD but the divine spells are granted by the class in a mechanical sense. There are some modifications based on domains to spells but the god is still an afterthought and justification for the domain rather than a reason in most cases.

As far as gods needing to perform acts of powerful magic for folks to believe in them in a fantasy world I think that obviously makes sense. It's not that far from the real world though, ancient people saw these gods as performing very powerful magic as well. Storms, volcanoes, blights, and all manner of things were attributed to the gods in a very real way that defies the kind of dubious "act of god" philosophy we have today. Still though in a fantasy setting what sets priests and the working of magic apart is these spells and miracles were available on demand, at least a few times a day.

I realize Ranger had gave some clarity as to his implementation later on and I'll try to address that too, I wanted to chime in on the original idea first though.