How do Governments Align?

N'raac

First Post
Is a democracy always Good? Tyranny of the Majority is a term I recall from high school, and doesn't seem to fit the model.

Is it impossible for the people to select their leaders under an ideal of Evil? Many 20th century Fascist regimes were elected democratically, and you classify those as Evil.

There are a host of variants of "democracy", making its classification (or even definition) challenging. Are we referring to a state where every citizen votes on every issue, or the more common representative democracy (or republic) where the citizens elect representatives to make decisions for them?

I question whether any system under which the Rule of Law governs (a tenet of democracy) would be Chaotic. It seems arguable that any form of government (possibly with the exception of a single autocratic ruler, a CE "rule by might", rather than by fealty) adheres to the Chaotic ideal.

Fascism is definitely lawful. Are the tenets Evil? "The Fascist conception of the State is all-embracing; outside of it no human or spiritual values can exist, much less have value. Thus understood, Fascism is totalitarian, and the Fascist State—a synthesis and a unit inclusive of all values—interprets, develops, and potentiates the whole life of a people." The belief that outsiders have no value seems to fall outside Good, so perhaps. Acceptance of the use of violence also pushes the balance to Evil (but then, isn't acceptance of violence a core precept of most RPG's?).

I'm unclear why you link autocracy to fascism. A dictatorship is a form of autocracy (so it links historically to many fascist states), but so is an absolute monarchy. Autocracy is probably the most common form of government historically. Agreed that it is on the Lawful side of the spectrum. Good/Evil likely depends on who that absolute power is vested in. King John and King Richard (to pick Robin Hood) would be Evil and Good monarchs, at least under the traditional legends. Of course, many "monarchys" today are democracies with a figurehead monarch (although Japan was a fascist state ostensibly headed by an Emperor in WW II).

You have not included oligarchies, but again I suggest Lawful, with Good/Evil determined by the players. A theocracy is a common form of oligarchy in many fantasy settings, as are magocracies.

Communism is a classless society, described by Plato as (emphasis added) "The private and individual is altogether banished from life and things which are by nature private, such as eyes and ears and hands, have become common, and in some way see and hear and act in common, and all men express praise and feel joy and sorrow on the same occasions." That sounds as Lawful as you can get. Everyone working together for common goals, rather than pursuing one's individual best interests. By that definition, perhaps it is Capitalism which is inherently Chaotic - every man for himself, rather than every man pulling together for the common good. There are a lot of different bents on communism as well.

This is a potential fireball of a thread - mixing alignment and politics (hot topics in their own right) seems potentially a highly volatile mix. We all want to believe our own views are "Good", I think. However, I don't see most specific forms of government being inherently "good" or "evil", whether in real world shades of grey or even in the simplified fantasy world, where the revolutionary can be a brave hero in some tales, and an evil opponent of just government in others.
 

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Is a democracy always Good? Tyranny of the Majority is a term I recall from high school, and doesn't seem to fit the model.

In some D&D settings, members of a particular species may be "always chaotic evil" or "always this alignment". So a democracy of beholders is probably all lawful evil. I was thinking of the Star Control sci-fi video game setting when I spotted this sentence. In that setting, the Ilwrath are all evil, and were under the control of priests of an evil god. It turned out the "evil god" were just pranksters, and when the priests realized this and told the populace, the populace slaughtered them and continued their evil ways! We were never told how the Ilwrath ran things after that, but if it was democracy, it would have been an evil one.

Is it impossible for the people to select their leaders under an ideal of Evil? Many 20th century Fascist regimes were elected democratically, and you classify those as Evil.

Yes.

I'm not sure if democracy is widespread in any D&D setting. Rulers tend to be monarchs, theocrats, or a council of nobles or merchants. I think only Waterdeep and Tyr (from Dark Sun) seemed to have good-aligned democracies in settings that I can recall.
 

howandwhy99

Adventurer
Groups are usually statted up like individuals, but in aggregate. The less they self-organize, the more conflicting/opposing they are in their actions, then the more they are chaotic in alignment. Abilities are lost as a whole, but retained on an individual level.

For example, a city could be Neutrally Aligned, but its other stats are going to derive from everything else going on in the city as a whole. Then the average alignment of its populace will result in more or fewer large scale city abilities. Ordered/organized alignments work better together, but tend to think alike as well as act alike. Chaotic aren't able to work together as well (they are competing against each other), but they can be forced to work together by the most powerful in their group. Neutrals are a mix.
- (Good/Evil are perspectives of each of the primary 3 alignments. Each typically views the others as not good and their own alignment as good)

A military unit is the archetypal example here for D&D. Do they fight in formation? Can they learn to create a shield wall? A facing for mass attacks? Towns and cities can be considered similarly.
 
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GreenTengu

Adventurer
Honestly, the approach to governments in D&D's various editions when laying out their worlds hinges on lunacy.

First of all, no functional society is going to have anyone at the top who is actually chaotic. Maybe they are dishonest in their dealing with other, sure, and maybe they don't really feel like the rules apply to them-- but their position of power and authority, and their ability to retain that power and authority hinges on everyone having respect for the laws, the traditions and the general structure of society and obeying it. Thus, they are going to espouse and push for an at least generally lawful agenda.

Even if the king is crazy and took his power by force or was just never properly raised, if the society doesn't fall apart within a week or two, you can be sure everyone around the king is aligned Lawful.

This is of course true of functional, flourishing cities, but the truth is that it really has to be true of even those wild barbarian tribes. Even the brutish Orc warlord needs things kept in order by the lawful Orcs or the band would just dissolve with everyone going their own way. There is no reason any member of that tribe would stick with any other member of that tribe unless they received more benefit from the relationship than what they gave up in exchange, particularly since they are evil, so... the idea of there being any sort of nebulously chaotic society is nonsense. It just doesn't work out.

In terms of good and evil... Again, there is an issue. If your society is all evil, then just like being chaotic it really does not take long for everyone to just split up and go their own ways because no one wants to contribute more than they receive and soon enough in the general course of things, one is going to be find themselves in that position and unless somehow kept there via force or threat of force, they are naturally going to leave for a situation that better benefits them.

On the reverse, if the entire society is nebulously good then the truth is that the society will likely collapse in on itself as no one is going to be making the hard and generally evil decisions that are required, nor being motivated by selfishness enough to accomplish great feats. Capitalism is an entire system that is entirely predicated upon a vice that all people know to be evil, and yet it does in fact function better than any other system people have tried-- certainly better than the "let's all share everything with everyone and everyone owns everything equally" system which would no doubt be classified as "good" at its core and perhaps fails because people just aren't that altruistic-- at least not all the time.

Just like it is really dumb to classify your characters as being somewhere on the Law/Chaos, Good/Evil scale as any reasonable character is very likely to be one of those in situations involving one group or people and another in their deals with a different group, and for exactly what they would be classified as changing in any given situation as their underlining values, motivations, goals, ideals, ambitions and bonds mean that their moral code is going to shift a bit in order to balance out all of what they want and want to do. Even one putting forward the idea that one of those 9 is going to govern the mass majority of your character's actions is the ramblings of someone who never really examined how real human beings work.

It is so very much more ludicrous when you want to try to apply those labels to a whole society or a whole people. There is just way, WAY too much going on to classify it so simply.

Seriously-- try to classify any real world society and, aside from those that have been historically demonized, and you couldn't really apply any such label to any society that would govern how all people in all layers of that society acted in all facets of their daily lives.

What is the "alignment" of Mexico compared to the "alignment" of Norway? Do London and Honolulu have the same alignment or different alignments?

It is just utter nonsense and fails fundamentally as any sort of tool to indicate to you what is and is not important in the society. You would get a lot more out of saying that the laws and norms of behavior of Society 1 have very strict laws about A, B and C which might seem very "Lawful" compared to Society 2, but they also tend to be a lot more permissive with D, and E compared to Society 2 and while Society 1 particularly espouses values X, Y and Z which are all good and all, their application of those values isn't as universal as it could be and their military forces engage in various activities that seem to undermine those values suggesting that they have evil vices V and W.

A well-written setting is just going to be enough of a complicated mess that this whole alignment system restricts one in a way that is almost certainly not helpful.
 

Celebrim

Legend
"What is the "alignment" of Mexico compared to the "alignment" of Norway?"

This sort of question is why I won't touch this topic at any depth, any more than I would touch, "What is the alignment of these real world political figures?", but...

By every measure, Norway is much more lawful than Mexico, whether we mean civic minded, rule of law, or lack of corruption.

Real world cultures however tend to be complex and shifting, and most large nations (which Mexico qualifies as) are actually made up of multiple smaller cultural traditions each of which has their own distinct and sometimes contrasting view point. Obviously, some people won't align with any of those cultural traditions, but the point is that large numbers of people will and will therefore have certain predictable opinions.

Sure, there are some senses in which the economics of a nation can't be approximated exactly by the economics of a single household or person, but I hold with Hamilton that the rough approximation is still pretty close and pretty useful. In the same sense, the culture of a nation can't be approximated by the culture of a single person, but as a rough approximation you can still draw some useful abstractions.

Way back in the day when I was interested in simulating 'ruling a D&D kingdom', I described nations by the combination of their overall alignment and the overall alignment of their ruling class. And for each ruling class their tended to be a dissident faction whose size depended on the overall contentedness of the society. Large nations would require description of their individual regions, each with their own subcultures.

Capitalism is an entire system that is entirely predicated upon a vice that all people know to be evil...

No. A free market economy is predicated on the idea that each person will willingly serve his fellow man to their advantage if it is also in his self-interest to do so, and in doing so they will produce greater benefits to all parties than if they are forced to serve for the advantage of other. The basic idea of capitalism is that compassion is in most cases aligned with and not against self-interest.

Please read Adam Smith and other early Liberal economists before spouting this sort of crap.
 

zabom

First Post
I am working on a custom rule set, and the alignment system I have in place for players would also work for governments. Instead of lawful and chaotic. I changed it to Freedom-minded and security-minded. (F/S) Instead of good and evil, I changed it to self-sacrificing and self-serving. (A/E because they both start with S)

so in terms of actual governments:
US at formation FE (Their philosophy was freedom first and everyone must make their own way)
US now Neutral (Freedom and security are at constant odds E.G Anti/pro gun laws and welfare and other social programs have been enacted)
North Korea SA (No true freedom and the government owns everything and gives citizens the necessities to survive in return for obedience)


Note that the self-sacrificing and self-serving dynamic is very complicated. Neither is really good or evil. I list a communist government as self sacrificing because it asks the hardest working and highest producing citizens to sacrifice the fruits of their labor to support those that are not capable of doing so themselves. On the other hand, the US at conception (and capitalism in general) supports reward for hard work and keeping what you earn, making their citizens self-serving.

I like this system better, because it is designed more for defining your action in game. Good vs. evil and lawful vs. chaotic falls short since you can do good for evil reasons and do evil for good reasons, as well as being lawful because you follow your own code instead of actual laws.
 

GreenTengu

Adventurer
No. A free market economy is predicated on the idea that each person will willingly serve his fellow man to their advantage if it is also in his self-interest to do so, and in doing so they will produce greater benefits to all parties than if they are forced to serve for the advantage of other. The basic idea of capitalism is that compassion is in most cases aligned with and not against self-interest.

Please read Adam Smith and other early Liberal economists before spouting this sort of crap.

Did you even think for ten seconds what you even wrote there? Put another way "being a selfish, egocentric, cut-throat, greedy, lying, cheat bastard generally should line up with being altruistic in the pie-in-the-sky idealistic views of some ancient thinkers who never actually saw the system in action."
So I guess when you think about if communism works, you decide the only possible sources are Marx and Lenin and screw any evidence that arises from seeing the actual system in actual action. Only early philosophers count!
Or do you just hold a complete double-standard on such things? I am guessing you are in the double-standard camp.

Real capitalism is real simple.
You can make more money this quarter by poisoning the water supply of this town? Do it! It is on them to clean up the mess.
You can produce cheap gas to sell across the nation, but the people in this town will have flammable gas? By all means, doing so is the "right" thing to do.
You can produce your goods more cheaply by firing all the workers and instead contracting slave labor in a foreign country or getting slave prison labor to do the work? There is no question about it, if you don't do this you are betraying capitalistic principles and traditions!
Removing as much actual "food" stuff from the "food" you are selling and pumping it full of chemicals that make it more visually appealing and make it as addictive as heroine? A brilliantly sound decision!
We can create a whole fake "holiday" around pretending our prices are lower by presenting a fake "normal" price that we would never sell the item for next to a "sale" price that is what we normally sell it for and bombarding them with advertising to play a psychological trick to get people to rush to the stores fighting and biting each other, trampling each other to death in order to buy stuff they don't want to give to people who don't want it either.... Halleujah, praise be to the invisible market hand!!

In fact, if you don't do these things to the full and complete extent you can, then your business fails and goes under. As capitalism says it should-- if you are not acting in your egomaniacal self-interest for short-term gain, then you deserve to lose and fail.

If once in a blue moon your own short-term self-interests just happen to line up with not cheating, lying to or killing other human beings, then certainly under those limited circumstances by all means you can avoid doing so. But most of the time? Getting ahead means hurting someone somewhere, and often all of us everywhere, in some manner in order to see that this quarter's profits bump up at least a few percentage points-- because if they don't, you will be the only one of your competitors that isn't doing so and your business will fail.

Fundamentally it is a system based on being evil for evil reasons. If any system in all of history can be called evil, it really has to be this. Doesn't mean it doesn't work, but just because something functions doesn't mean it isn't based on wholly immoral principles.

In fact, one more perfect example just in case you thought any of my examples about energy industry or industrial or food manufacturing examples could be rationalized away....
Diamonds.
You know what diamonds are? No, not what they have come to represent in culture. What they really are.
Compressed cubes of carbon. No unusual mix of odd elements that are unlikely to be found in just the right percentages... just... carbon. One of the most basic elements. In truth, compared to most gemstones, even compared to gold? Diamonds are not rare. You would never think that by looking at their value bought brand new on the market, but... no... they are actually pretty common when it comes to ranking of gemstones.

150 years ago, while they were appreciated, not to a particularly greater extent than most gemstones. The heart of Africa was full of them.
But, this company-- in the spirit of free market capitalism, went down to Africa and by hook or crook, by dollar or at the end of a gun took control of all the sources of diamonds. They created a monopoly over the supply. They then artificially restricted the supply by stockpiling them to inflate their price on the open market.

The genius is what they did next. They created a massive marketing campaign to lie to people that spending 2 months salary on a diamond is what all people are supposed to do when they get engaged. The crazy thing is... it worked! Now they were selling previously dirt cheap rocks at a premium and created an artificial demand that meant tens of thousands of people were spending 1/6th of their yearly salary on them every single year!

And since diamonds became the hottest commodity ever, meeting the demands and retaining control over the mines meant enslaving, butchering, and committing genocide against hundreds of thousands of people! The company has been involved with supporting warlords, topple governments and utterly impeding any progress towards democracy or civilization in the region in order to retain their unprecedented profits.

And people have been happily engaging in this for generations because....
A) People are in fact not rational nor informed and thus capitalism is evil because its most important fundamental premise is dead wrong.
or
B) Even if people are rational and informed, they are still fundamentally evil and more than happy to visit upon others the most horrific treatment in order to serve their "self interest"-- even if that self-interest is merely inflating their ego the slightest amount. Thus, capitalism is evil because it is created and engaged in by fundamentally evil people.

See, THAT is what capitalism is. THAT is what capitalism does. It is the only possible end result of the system, not some hippy-dippy daydreaming nonsense of an idiot philosopher who could only imagine his ideas resulting in good things because, after all, they were HIS ideas and so... how could anything he thought up possibly go wrong?

It is a system that rewards evil and punishes good behavior by absolute extremes. It drives people to the depths of depravity.

And to say that it can't be evil because people actually buy certain products willingly regardless of the harm it does them or don't try to flee from it, well... a bit of hard truth?
Most slaves don't seek to be free.
Most people in abusive relationships don't want out of them.
People who get kidnapped often end up sympathizing with their kidnappers.
People who have been sex trafficked from a young age often don't see anything wrong with their lives and don't think of themselves as being victims.

In pretty much all such cases, it is outsiders, not the people in those situations, who bring such situations to an end.

So just because people are used to something or can accept something or become accustomed to something and don't seek out to change it doesn't mean doing these acts to people isn't evil. The worst of things can be tolerated and accepted as soon as it becomes the norm for you. It is the rare individual who strives for something greater once they are comfortable.
 
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Celebrim

Legend
Well, I won't even dignify that rant by quoting it. There is nothing to say but that you are completely and utterly wrong, in practically every sentence.

But even to the extent that anything you said wasn't wrong, you've gone way far from discussing RPGs. You don't mention it once. Indeed, your only position in this thread other than discussing politics, is to rant about how wrong it would be to apply the OP's idea, not because it would be bad gaming, but because it doesn't fit into your twisted view of the real world. You are so far from willing to discuss RPG's, that you've decided the entire idea is "lunacy". But from your first explanatory sentence on, it's clear you no more understand D&D alignment than you do economics or history.
 

N'raac

First Post
Without getting too deep into this, capitalist economic theory assumes a free market with perfect competition. A monopoly is the exact opposite of the assumed state of a market in which capitalism functions. As such, the diamond example is one where the assumptions supporting capitalist theory (as opposed to "capitalism in action") fail.

Barriers to entry distort capitalist economic theory. As my Intro Econ prof put it many years ago, the biggest challenge of economic theory is that the real world is typically a special case.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Fine. Since I've no desire to talk politics here, I'll go ahead and address the question. Keep in mind that I've no interest is discussing specific real world examples, and I'm going to try to as much as possible avoid specific real world theories - although that's going to be somewhat impossible. So to get that out of the way I'll just say that the D&D alignment terms are descriptive, and not proscriptive. Each alignment and its proponents - including evil - believes it is in some sense 'right' and 'correct' and that it promotes 'right' and 'correct' behavior. There are real world examples of people who promote concepts normally thought of as evil as if they were good, or who declaim against concepts normally thought of as good as being in fact wrong. Since an alignment system requires us to take an absolute view, we have to sort those concepts into buckets based on their features, but in doing so we are - unlike what is accused by some - not taking a stand on who is right. As far as the alignment system is concerned, perhaps the Chaotic Neutrals who promote absolute rational self-interest and oppose altruism as a tool of subjugation are correct and the best possible approach to the reality of the world is Chaotic Neutral. We only label them Chaotic Neutral because it is clear that the heterodox and surprising idea that altruism is bad, while it may not be wrong, doesn't easily fit with what is normally thought of as 'Good' - even if it may turn out that 'Good' produces less good ends in practice than what we are calling CN.

This also shows why on a purely practical basis, it's a stupid idea to try to draw real world examples. Because the more real world examples we use, the more our own personal biases are going to color the results and the more we are going to end up arguing over how the bucket containing thing we prefer or self-identify with ought to be labeled.

That out of the way, hopefully their won't be too many arguments from the relative perspective that everyone's favorite ideology ought to the be one labeled 'Good' and we can dispense with useless assertions that morality is all relative anyway so the whole idea of an alignment system is wrong. (These assertions can often be labeled as aligned viewpoint assertions anyway, since in fact the Chaotic end of the spectrum largely agrees that morality is relative, although what they mean by that differs between CG and CE obviously. And obviously one way to describe the Neutral viewpoint is that morality is entirely an artificial construct. But back on topic.)

The first thing I'd like to note is that you have it backwards to a certain extent. The question isn't so much "How do Governments Align" but rather "How do Alignments Govern". Governments are manifestations of the underlying cultures that produce them, and while there is a bit of a feedback loop going on here so that the government in turn alters the culture, the primacy is rightly with the culture and not the government. Cultures have an almost unlimited capacity to change the government, but the government has only limited capacity to change the culture. It's a manifestation of what people believe, and its I think rightly true that "people get the government that they deserve, not the government they want".

And in that we get the first sense that its going to be messy. If we start talking about real governments and trying to align them, what we will notice is that they rarely if ever achieve a platonic idea of government. Instead, the government might be instituted under one set of principles, only to fail because the culture doesn't actually support them and be actually governed under an entirely different set. Or a government might deliberately be instituted under a lie, so that the face that the government wants to present of itself is entirely different than what it really is - the USSR's constitution famously on paper protected civil liberties even more than the American constitution, even though in practice real freedom of speech and freedom of the press didn't actually exist. Finally, and this is most common, a government might be instituted under one set of principles, only to have the culture shift out from under it somewhat, so that the resulting system becomes hybrid of what the older culture and those that cling to it intended and what the newer culture and its proponents would have created on their own. It's particularly common, and even predictable, that a Lawful culture which values Tradition, will have vestiges of irrational things that don't seem to make sense and which support a completely different set of notions simply because it doesn't like to abandon older rituals and rather fears rapid change.

Again, it should be obvious that I think all real world examples are very messy indeed, so when I start outlining idealized forms it will be a mistake to think things like, "Oh, that's the American system.", or think that if a description seems familiar that I'm labeling a real world nation by a particular label. Even where the shoe fits, the real system is going to be so messy and often evolving that if I actually attempted to describe a real nation (which I wouldn't, as it would be a rather useless exercise compared to creating fantasy nations to play in), it would be longer in some cases than this already long essay.

To make the most sense of this, we need to start by thinking about the sort of government that each set of ideas would create in its pure form, before we start dealing with the complexities of compromise between several cultures, cultural drift over time, and so forth.

You do seem to start with the proper basis, roughly getting your labels "Good", "Law", "Chaos", and "Evil" correctly described - or at least close enough for these purposes. So I'm going to avoid spending a lot of time describing the labels and assume that our ideas about what those words mean are close enough for a working start. I do want to caution you however, that it's actually the "at any cost" that is more important to the idea of evil than "self-interest" is. It's actually what it doesn't value - life, happiness, growth, health, etc. - that is more defining here than the fact that it values self. Indeed, there are forms of evil that don't value the self at all, but instead willingly sacrifice the self "at any cost" to serve the evil end. Likewise, while evil prides often itself on being "pragmatic", that really is only for certain values of "pragmatic". Evil values power over weal, for example, and force and the ability to enforce its desires over health. So for example, evil admires the person who in seeking vengeance destroys everything that they love and makes themselves into a heartless weapon stabbing at their foe even from the mouth of hell's pit in order to avenge themselves. Or evil holds that the narcotic addict stoned out of their mind lying in their filth is doing well in seeking their gratification above everything else. But one could I think argue that all those states are hardly practical for other values of practical.

Lawful Good: In ideal, a constitutional monarchy where the monarch himself is merely the embodiment and instrument of a higher set of laws which bind even him. Each person has a place in this structure and a purpose and a set of mutually ennobling relationships with peers, and those both higher and lower in the hierarchy, which is called duty. The King rules through his loyal vassals, who form a peerage whom he loves and delights to honor, and who in turn delight in doing the King's will. And this relationship extends downward at every level to the least member of society for whom the whole society actually exists and supports, so that the scullion girl and the maid who tends the fireplace is the friend and beloved of both her peers and her betters and each person finds themselves loved and supported and knows that they each in some small way contribute to the health of everyone in ways that are appreciated and honorable. Laws will tend to be numerous and harsh, but the society - being also good - will tend to mitigate this by the recognition that the cure for petty crimes is often worse than the ill that the propose to cure. So society will tend to favor enforcing most of its disapproval for smaller vices through social disapproval rather than judicial writ, leaving it up to the individuals to reform the situation before it becomes a greater vice. Thus, there will often be a measure of personal freedom and discretion, and in particular each lord will be encouraged to as much as possible take a merciful tact and apply the law in spirit rather than in impersonal letter, taking into account the desire of and the desirability of reforming everyone because - being Good - the society tends to err on the side of seeing everyone as having worth. As much as possible, the law will try to provide just and merciful institutions for handling the situation when thing go wrong, so that poverty, abandonment, and even crime are dealt with, but so that these institutions don't overly burden the whole of society by and large the expectation is that problems will be dealt with at below the level of institutional justice, with social enforcement. A family will for instance take care of its own as much as possible, not merely out of proper familial love, but out of a feeling of not wanting to burden others who already no doubt have their own cares. That is to say, they will do their duty toward that person.

Lawful Neutral: Much as Lawful Good, but without the (to its mind) foolish concern for mercy and personal freedom which just allows individuals to shirk their duties, and without as much concern for individual weal. The idea that you ought to serve your master because you love him and he loves you will be missing. Instead, you serve your master because he is your master, and the burden of responsibility will be more decidedly on the servant. The master has concern for things higher than the servant, which is the health of the whole, and so the servant must understand that if it seems he is ill-used it is still his privilege to serve. In all things, right order and duty must prevail. There will be little if any desire to attempt to reform the situation if things go wrong. Servants (or masters) that fail in their duty do not deserve consideration, and quite often the best they can hope for is to be allowed to destroy themselves to spare their betters the trouble of having to do it - that is, an honorable death. The tendency will be more toward Absolute Monarchy, with fewer safeguards on the exercise of legal authority, and the word of the Ruler being absolute. That said, there will be little expectation that anyone in the hierarchy has much room for exercising personal judgment, as the law and tradition will make each person's duty clear and inescapable. The idea is for the whole society to work like a machine which is instructed perfectly by the perfect law, however it comes down to them.

Lawful Evil: Much as lawful neutral, but the law will not be written merely with the idea that ideal society is a perfectly functioning machine, but that a perfectly functioning society is one that is unreservedly cruel and uncompromising. The Lawful Evil society doesn't naively expect its members to do their duty because it is their duty, but that each cog in the system must be compelled by force to do its duty and given no choice in the matter. The system works best when each servant suffers under the weight of the lash, obeys without hesitation because it is compelled by fear and pain, and has so lost its sense of identity that they cannot even conceive of rebelling. The society takes to heart the maxim that is it is better to be feared than loved. Any problem in the system, any crime against the society - and everything that is not 100% commitment to the society is a crime - must be not only rooted out, but punished disproportionately to the offense both to set an example and to properly allow the lord to avenge themselves against the hateful crime of being slighted in the least. Each person is placed in the role they are needed in and suited for without slightest regard for affection. Everything is a ruthless meritocracy. The tendency here will be toward Absolute Despotism. The lord has no preference for seeing his son succeed him. His chosen heir will be whoever is strongest, most ruthless, and most capable. A word of caution here though. Too often this system is ultimately described in terms that descend into Chaos with all sorts of backstabbing and treachery. It's important to understand that the vassals in this system, have no desire to improve their rank within the system save through the proper legal channels. No one in this system 'delights' to serve, but they do all desire to serve. And while the entire system exists to support the will of the absolute monarch, even he considers himself merely the most valuable most important cog in the machine, and if it ever comes to it willingly sacrifices himself for the sake of the whole. While the society collectively is selfish in that it desires to subjugate all other societies and assimilate them to itself, no individual component of the system is driven by self-interest. A good fictional example of this idealized state of affairs is in 1984, where 'Big Brother' doesn't even actually exist, but everyone is a cog that serves the system anyway even though no one truly enjoys doing so. The perfectly functioning Lawful Evil society is ultimately ruled by the social construct and doesn't even need a real leader at the top of it issuing commands. It just keeps going because there isn't anyway to evade it's continued functioning - everyone is under compulsion and even its theoretically absolute ruler couldn't alter that even if he impossibly wanted to.

Neutral Evil: For me, it's almost impossible to imagine a society which has become predominately neutral evil and persist in that state for very long. You see examples of it over short periods, such as the paroxysm of Nazi Germany in its final days where SS guards who knew the war was lost and as such everything they believed in was a lie, still persisted in trying to execute as many prisoners as possible, before committing suicide together with their families, or in the killing fields of Cambodia where the whole society seemed to be trying to destroy itself in a rush to see which group would be last to destroy the other. Even the existence of an evil society or any other sort of prosperity is antithetical to the goals of Neutral Evil, which ultimately is insisting that nothing is redeeming or worthwhile. But as there are short term real world examples, in a fantasy setting you can come up with examples that represent society in a perpetual dystopian state - such as a society where all the members are converted to undead or where the society is effectively ruled by some sort of destructive curse. In practice, most societies that you'd describe as predominately Neutral Evil are actually societies that are eclectically a mix of Chaotic Evil and Lawful Evil competing narratives warring with themselves in such a way that each fails to realize the result is in neither groups interest, but the paroxysm of annihilation is temporarily abated by each groups continuing to value one thing or another.

Chaotic Evil: Anarchy. In a certain sense, there is little else to say here, though I should note that here I mean Anarchy and not various Anarchy inspired systems of government. The perfect end goal of CE is not only no order, but no basis for relationships or social ideas that could interfere with the strong taking what they want from the weak. There is no government. No rules. In the real world, this happens in areas we call now 'failed states'. No one is concerned with much anything but survival. The largest sort of social organization observed is an ad hoc gang ruled by the best and most efficient bully for as long as he can hold the job. One word of caution though is that quite often, societies presented in D&D in the past as nearly pure 'chaotic evil' are nothing like this but instead fascist absolute monarchies ruled by complex traditions and manifesting all sorts of social institutions. It should be obvious that such societies are actually predominately Lawful Evil with at least some self-centered Chaotic Evil members or otherwise complex kludged examples and not nearly their platonic form. In my own mind, the purest Chaotic Evil social expression is real world leonine society, and my own CE societies (Drow, for instance) are actually closely modeled after the culture of lion prides.

Chaotic Neutral: Libertarian Democracy, although in the purest form, we ought to say government per se doesn't exist. Also all of those idealized Anarchy systems of government, which have the rather chaotic nature of being things that can't actually be systematically put into practice, but if you were to try to put them into practice and they weren't immediately subverted out of a misplaced desire to make them work, would be chaotic neutral. The point being however that the basis of society will be that in so far as you don't deprive others of their rights, you can and ought to be allowed to pretty well do what you please with at most the expectations that other people will show their individual displeasure by refusing to associate with you. The basis of all relationships is ultimately private and contractual, with authority only existing to ensure that those contracts are enforced without descending into total anarchy, freely entered into, and otherwise not oppressive over the long term and have a suitable means of ending the relationship equitably. But 'buyer beware' will tend to be the rule of the day and what authority there is will take a dim view of forcing you to observe rights you don't yourself protect or otherwise doing things for your own good, which you ought to know better than they do. Trial when it occurs will tend to be by a group of peers, and there will be a tendency toward government through ad hoc appointed committee with no lasting institutions. In practice, most things will be rather spontaneous by design. Militias will dominate over standing armies. Elected sheriffs will appoint citizens for special purpose law enforcement as and if it comes up. Elected judges will largely be responsible not for enforcing or interpreting law, but overseeing juries on a need basis who will do the enforcing and ruling and interpreting. Surprisingly perhaps, feudalism of a sort works pretty well here, provided we limit ourselves solely to the feudal system and assume that the institution of inheritable serfdom doesn't exist. Feudalism in the idea as well as the practice tended toward government through private contract and if you outlaw slavery and get rid of ideas like the divine right of kings, you end up with something rather like libertarian democracy - and its to be noted that this isn't a coincidence, but rather pretty much exactly where we got democracy from in the real world.

Chaotic Good: Democracy, often implemented as a Federal Republic or similar institution of distributed powers. Quite similar in many ways to Chaotic Neutral, but there will be some concessions to ensuring that the strong do not end up oppressing the weak, and that critically the rights of minorities in the system are protected from the power of the ad hoc mob. The law will primarily be organized on an individual rights and liberties basis, and typically the government will be strongly limited in its powers. There will be a strong distrust of centralized authority, and a strong tendency to delegate authority to local governments and indeed to individuals when possible. The law will typically be seen as flexible and evolving to meet changing needs. There will tend to be a preference for common law rather than written law, and interpreting each situation based on its particular facts. Political parties will tend to be numerous, and ever changing, as different associations and interests change over time, and the typical basis of both government in its ideal and practical form will be seen as friendship and personal relationships. The government governs best when it stays out of the way, but when it does intervene the magistrate is someone you know and indeed who has the position because you trusted him personally to do that job better than anyone else you knew.

Neutral Good: Parliamentary Republic or perhaps Syndical Oligarchy. Obviously, in many ways halfway between the Lawful Good description and the Chaotic Good description and with some features of each. I'm going to be deliberately vague here because it's important to understand that a true Neutral Good society doesn't actually consider the exact structure of the government all that important, as it is actually neutral on the question of whether order or the lack of it is what promotes weal. A true Neutral Good society would say that an over interest in the particulars of government rather missed the point, as the goal wasn't to create a government per se but to create weal and health and contentment by whatever tool was available and that government alone - nor its lack - couldn't accomplish or provide for that. Compared to Lawful Good, there will be a general distrust of a central decision maker, and committees of advisors or a parliament or a council of representatives (elected or otherwise) will be preferred over a single dictator and tend to hold the real power. Compared to Chaotic Good, there will be a general distrust that the body politic can be completely self-regulating and establish justice for all on its own, but conversely there will be far more strong guarantees of individual rights compared to Lawful Good and a general agreement that duty ought to be something that is freely entered into and freely left if it proves to burdensome and unrewarding. For example, there will be a strong preference for a volunteer professional army over a perpetual military caste or conscription as you might see in Lawful government. Much more strongly than Lawful Good, there will be the expectation that its really the spirit of the things the law exists to protect that is important, and that rulers ought to be put in positions to exercise their judgment with regard to that unburdened by necessities of tradition or written law - but not so much so that failure to abide by the law becomes and excuse by those in power to abuse their authority to their own advantages. As such, the neutral good government - however it is set up - will be most marked by its checks and balances.

Now of course, in the real world no plan survives battle. All of the above tend to drift in very predictable ways. A classic example is Lawful Evil societies are easily subverted by Chaotic Evil rulers who insist that the society exists to serve their personal whims rather than what is actually good for the society as a whole. Likewise, chaotic neutral societies are easily subverted by powerful individuals who then create laws and institutions that serve their interests at the expense of the personal freedom the society is supposedly organized around. Lawful good societies are easily victimized by incompetent rulers who aren't able to fulfill the needs of their offices. Chaotic Good societies because they see the law as flexible and evolving, can end up generating such a huge body of laws in the name of 'common good' that those laws themselves become every bit as stifling of the personal freedom they supposedly admire as a dictatorship would be (see ancient Athens for obvious historical precedent). And so on and so forth. And as I said, any system larger than a single village in the real world is going to have features adopted from several cultures either by deliberate compromise between several factions or through unguided evolutionary processes. If we really want to discuss real world examples, I'm not interested in discussing anything larger (or more controversial) than the alignment features of the government of individual Swiss cantons or villages.
 
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Split the Hoard


Split the Hoard
Negotiate, demand, or steal the loot you desire!

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