D&D (2024) 2024 Astral Plane

[Maxperson]

I get that.

For example, the Astral Plane overlaps the Material Plane. But each is distinct from the other.

(Indeed it is planar properties of the Material Plane that cause Astral creatures in the Astral Plane to "age". Thus Astral creatures can only have children who grow up while in the Material Plane. Afterward, the family returns to the Astral Sea where they can no longer age.)

My preference is: Astral dominions are part of the Astral Plane, but arent part of the Astral Sea.

Unfortunately, a single sentence in a sidebar in Spelljammer makes this awkward (Guide 21).

"Because these dominions are part of the Astral Sea, they are timeless. Nothing ages there, and creatures can survive there indefinitely without food or drink."

If it's your game, just make it so. Nothing awkward about it.

While it is true that Astral dominions are (typically) ageless, a dominion can have unique planar properties to itself.

For example, the dominion of Hestavar is the concept − the paradigmatic thought construct − of the ideal civilization. I expect and hope it will have unique planar properties that cohere with this archetype. (Star Trek tropes might make sense here.) In some ways it already has properties, like gravity, which the Astral Sea lacks.

I expect the same form the Outer Planes, aka alignment domains. Each will have unique characteristics.

Even tho the domains are part of the Astral Sea, each can have specific characteristics that are unlike the rest of the Astral Sea generally.

Those astral dominions, though, are not the outer planes. They are the city of brass, some god homes, etc. There's no conflict between that sidebar and running the planes as distinct from the astral sea.

 

[Yaarel]

Those astral dominions, though, are not the outer planes.

Of course that is where we disagree.

An "alignment" is an idea. A thought. It is a facet of the Astral Plane.

An Outer Plane is a kind of "dominion".

Altho it is a dominion, its infinite space might deserve special consideration, such as calling it a "Plane". But the idea of alignment, in a binary structure relating to other alignments, makes the domain "Outer".

They are the city of brass, some god homes, etc.

The City of Brass is in the Fire Plane (DMG 55).

Heh, that doesnt make sense to me because "brass" is the element of Earth, not Fire. 4e makes more sense having it in the Elemental Chaos, where elements can mix. To be fair, the DMG allows for some admixture in each Elemental Plane.

There's no conflict between that sidebar and running the planes as distinct from the astral sea.

The aspects that I care about are:

Cosmology. The Outer Planes are Astral realms of thought. Thoughts are the designs that created the multiverse. Souls originate from thought. And in the afterlife, can return to thought.

Fun. Characters can dock their spelljammer at Arborea and walk into to it. Players can get a sense of what a planar domain is about by seeing what its island looks like. It is something like using icons to conveniently label and organize complex data.

 

[Maxperson]

Of course that is where we disagree.

It's a fact of the paragraph you are referencing in the Spelljammer book.

From the sidebar you have been quoting, the very first thing it says...

"Many gods have dominions in the Astral Sea. These locations typically take the form of floating islands or cities of fantastic proportions. Astral travelers might visit these dominions as they would any other ports of call, though a dominion's divine ruler always knows when visitors have arrived and what their intentions are."

That's what astral dominions are in 5e. They are not the outer planes.

An "alignment" is an idea. A thought. It is a facet of the Astral Plane.

No. It's a facet of the outer planes which are ALSO built around thought. However, unlike the astral, they are thought and spirituality both, given physical form.

An Outer Plane is a kind of "dominion".

No it's not. It's a plane. Gods can have dominions on one, but the plane itself is not a dominion.

Cosmology. The Outer Planes are Astral realms of thought. Thoughts are the designs that created the multiverse. Souls originate from thought. And in the afterlife, can return to thought.

That's a great cosmology for you to create and if I played in a game with that sort of homebrew, I'd think it was cool. It's not the default of 5e, though, and Spelljammer doesn't change that at all.

Characters can dock their spelljammer at Arborea and walk into to it.

They can do that anyway. They just need to find a big enough color pool to fly through.

 

[Yaarel]

It's a fact of the paragraph you are referencing in the Spelljammer book.

From the sidebar you have been quoting, the very first thing it says...

"Many gods have dominions in the Astral Sea. These locations typically take the form of floating islands or cities of fantastic proportions. Astral travelers might visit these dominions as they would any other ports of call, though a dominion's divine ruler always knows when visitors have arrived and what their intentions are."

That's what astral dominions are in 5e. They are not the outer planes.

No. It's a facet of the outer planes which are ALSO built around thought. However, unlike the astral, they are thought and spirituality both, given physical form.

No it's not. It's a plane. Gods can have dominions on one, but the plane itself is not a dominion.

That's a great cosmology for you to create and if I played in a game with that sort of homebrew, I'd think it was cool. It's not the default of 5e, though, and Spelljammer doesn't change that at all.

They can do that anyway. They just need to find a big enough color pool to fly through.

The Outer Planes are a subset of astral dominions.

Astral dominions can be about any concept, such as Hestavar is the concept of "ideal civilization".

Outer Planes are the concept of "alignments".

 

[Yaarel]

However, unlike the astral, they are thought and spirituality both, given physical form.

In the context of a Platonic realm of ideals, I am unsure I see a difference between "thought" and "spirituality". Spirituality is itself an aspect of thought. From antiquity to the renaissance, the worldview describes angelic "intellects", the "divine mind", "wisdom", "divine will", "discernment", "instruction", "word", "forgiveness", "spirit" in the sense of "inspiration", and so on. Thought is holy. Thought is numinous. Thought is spiritual. Spirituality is an aspect of thought. Moreover, the Astral Plane is thought and dream. Dreams include vivid sensations, an apparent solidity, movement thru distances, forests, buildings, and people, including loved ones, along with emotions. The bliss of the dominions of Good alignments and the purgatory of the dominions of Evil alignments are thought.

Physical form. The Astral locales, including the Upper and Lower, are physical in the sense of something being able to feel physical in a dream. It is a virtual reality of a "mind".

It is certain that there is no matter in the Outer Planes. If a soul in the Outer Plane had a body made out of matter, then when a person resurrected, their soul would return to their body in the Material Plane, and leave a corpse behind to be buried in the Outer Plane. Souls leave no corpses in the Outer Planes. There are no bodies made out of matter. All of the Astral Plane is strictly immaterial including its Outer Planes.

 

[Maxperson]

The Outer Planes are a subset of astral dominions.

Not according to Spelljammer, the PHB or the DMG. Every last bit of context, and there is a ton of it in that sidebar, says they are only personal godly domains. You are extrapolating something that isn't there or even implied.

Astral dominions can be about any concept, such as Hestavar is the concept of "ideal civilization".

In your homebrew they surely can. In 5e they are not that way by default.

Outer Planes are the concept of "alignments".

Not relevant. That doesn't make them astral dominions.

 

[Yaarel]

Not according to Spelljammer, the PHB or the DMG. Every last bit of context, and there is a ton of it in that sidebar, says they are only personal godly domains. You are extrapolating something that isn't there or even implied.

The difficulty is, 5e refers to both the 3e Wheel cosmology and the 4e Axis cosmology. Also, 5e carefully avoids clarifying incongruencies between the two.

Some fans refer to the context of 4e to fill in the gaps and override conflicts. Some fans refer to the 3e to fill in the gaps and override conflicts.

But 5e is neither.

I am interested to see how the 5e designers will reconcile their references to both conflictive cosmologies.

For example, in 3e Pelor is in Elysium the True Good Outer Plane. In 4e Pelor is in Hestavar with two Unaligned creatures, and not in Elysium.

Where is Pelor in 5e? Fill in the blindspot.


Since 5e mentions Hestavar by name, presumably Pelor is in Hestavar ... and not Elysium.

Thus the souls of the religious adherents of the sun tradition apparently go to Hestavar ... not Elysium.

Or maybe, Hestavar is part of Elysium.

Maybe in 5e, the Outer Plane of the True Good alignment is actually a network of Astral dominions linking together by portals.

I suspect, in 5e, creatures of other alignments can be inhabitants of a conflictive alignment plane.


5e borrows from 3e and borrows from 4e, but is neither.

 

[Maxperson]

The difficulty is, 5e refers to both the 3e Wheel cosmology and the 4e Axis cosmology. Also, 5e carefully avoids clarifying incongruencies between the two.

Correct. It explicitly mentions the 4e Axis cosmology as an alternate cosmology the DM can use instead of the Great Wheel, which is 5e's default cosmology. 5e does not refer to both cosmologies existing simultaneously as the default.

Some fans refer to the context of 4e to fill in the gaps and override conflicts. Some fans refer to the 3e to fill in the gaps and override conflicts.

What conflicts or gaps? I look at the PHB and DMG and see the Great Wheel with no gaps or conflicts.

I am interested to see how the 5e designers will reconcile their references to both conflictive cosmologies.

What is your reference to 4e cosmology? It's not the sidebar in Spelljammer, because that makes no reference to 4e cosmology at all.

For example, in 3e Pelor is in Elysium the True Good Outer Plane. In 4e Pelor is in Hestavar with two Unaligned creatures, and not in Elysium.

Where is Pelor in 5e? Fill in the blindspot.

There is no blind spot. If you want to look to older editions to decide where Pelor lives, if you run the Great Wheel, he's on Elysium in The Fortress of Light. If you choose to instead run the 4e World Axis, he's in Hestavar on the Astral Plane.

Since 5e mentions Hestavar by name...

Where? It's not in the PHB or DMG that I can find.

Or maybe, Hestavar is part of Elysium.

Maybe in 5e, the Outer Plane of the True Good alignment is actually a network of Astral dominions linking together by portals.

I suspect, in 5e, creatures of other alignments can be inhabitants of a conflictive alignment plane.


5e borrows from 3e and borrows from 4e, but is neither.

I think the issue here is that you are trying to mix editions. 5e is 5e and Pelor lives where 5e says he lives. 3e doesn't decide that. 4e doesn't decide that. Look only to 5e to figure it out in any official capacity.

5e doesn't get into where gods live, so it's wide open for you to choose whatever you prefer.

 

[Yaarel]

@Maxperson

Are you familiar with 4e cosmology?

The 5e cosmology features Feywild, Shadowfell, Elemental Chaos, Astral Sea, Dominions, Domains, Eladrin, etcetera. All of this and more come from 4e cosmology.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

Personally as far as 5E Spelljammer is concerned I'm depicting Astral Dominions as being effectively outposts of the Outer Planes by taking the concept of border islands for the 4E Astral Dominions and upgrading them to Dominions of their own.