How do I get better tactics from my players?

[Ciaran]

They're getting a new employer and I was wondering if anyone had any thought on the advisability of putting a party through a training session?

Good idea. This puts the training squarely in character, and lets your players learn via role-playing (which they're good at) rather than through OoC browbeating.

Maybe set up a really advanced 'danger room' style illusion spell and have a trainer run overwatch? I wouldn't want to do it unless it could be made uncheesy.

Here's a less cheesy possibility: their new employer already has a party of adventurers under contract, and demands that the PC group face them down in a non-lethal practice combat in order to test the mettle of the PCs. Then let the NPC party, who are of lower level than the PCs and have fewer magical items, run roughshod over the PCs through the use of clever tactics and teamwork. Then have them get together with the PCs for a friendly dinner afterwards and explain how the PCs went wrong and how they might improve their performance. Then after a couple of missions, let the PCs get a rematch.

- Eric

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

hmmm, Thanx for the many and great responses guys.

Looking at this problem I wonder why there has been a Hero Builder's Guide Book but no texts on how people should work as a party or as adventurers.

I would love to have short inexpensive guide of this type. Could slowly pass it around the Players and the problem would take care of itself.

For my immediate problem, I do think having them watch a party go into a dungeon or womp them competently is the way to go, but I have another idea I'd like to work out.

In my job we are trying to figure out ways to teach people through failure, and I'd love to figure out a way to show them both a better party's tactics and a party using the worse tactics possible. It sounds a little narration heavy. but man I'd love to have an NPC ask them:

"Ok, Gluglurch, can you look at what Conan is doing and tell me what he's doing wrong?"

Of course, I have always thought that a great two or three week side adventuring would be having the PCs get visiting lecturer positions at the adventurer's academy.

"Now Jimmy, I need you to stop backstabbing your classmates or I'll have no choice but to report you to Vice Lich Thrackazul."

 

[X-ray Crossbow]

I like these ideas.
My thoughts: show them that a lower-level party with less magic can beat them like a drum.

Now...what are these great tactics that these adventurers will use? Now that this guy has a solution, he could use some help with the execution.

 

[baradtgnome]

Oh, no! not a back in the old days post!

Our highly customized 1E campaign in the olden days was way stingy on XPs. And treasure. Characters needed to use every weapon, spell, clue, bit of string, rope, sack, oil, etc they had to survive and thrive. It was staggeringly hard to move up in levels, but folks learned to use what the had, and to be clever.

Moving up in 3e and the power it affords has corrupted my group. I actually had a group entering a cave have to stop and go back when a character said. "Anybody bring a torch?"

But seriously (as if that is remotely possible), perhaps some adventuring with there stuff taken away? Penalties for failure do not always have to be death. Embarassment, ransom, slavery (and hopefully escape), forced to marry against their desire, yet still another quest, dismemberment, loss of equipment, etc are all possible results of failure.

 

[ced1106]

Eh. I say it's just a case of GM / player difference in expectations with the game. Pick up a copy of "Robin Law's Guide to Good Gamemastering" and see if combat really would be appropriate for this group of players. If they're not interested in it, don't have adventures with fighting. If they're not intersted in tactics but want combat, perhaps switching to 2e might be in order.


Cedric.
aka. Washu! ^O^

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Eh. I say it's just a case of GM / player difference in expectations with the game. Pick up a copy of "Robin Law's Guide to Good Gamemastering" and see if combat really would be appropriate for this group of players. If they're not interested in it, don't have adventures with fighting. If they're not intersted in tactics but want combat, perhaps switching to 2e might be in order.


Cedric.
aka. Washu! ^O^

Oh no no no!!! Dear Cedric,

This is not simply a question of different GM/Player expectations. That is like saying that a failing grade is a difference of teacher/student expectations. Everybody's having a good time, I'm simply looking to methods for introducing a different level to our gameplay.

They have already taught me a great deal about devloping specific tactics in characters, now its my turn to return the favor...

...and the hurt!!!!

Mwahahahahahahahahhaahhaahahahahhaahahhahahahaha!!!!!

This game has to be enjoyable for both players and DMs and I simply seek to create a dialogue of enjoyment across the gaming table rather than flowing from one side only to the other...

...that and to get my evileers merit badge for bringing good Role-players to the munchkin side of the force, so that they might strike me down and together we might become more powerful than we could possibly imagine!!!

Sorry, just got my first dose of Halo in a good long time tonight, and I'm feeling the unchecked dungeoneering aggression flow through my veins.

Happy MLK day!

 

[Xarlen]

A similar idea.

Kynartus Desanti was an adventurer who lost his fellows in a grevious battle. So he went to join another group, and their tactics were... poor, and nearly got them all killed. He quit the group, and joined another, and one actually DID get killed.

This bothered Kynartus. So, he set out on a mission. To show adventuring parties they need to shape up.

Employing several men and women who use Subdual Substituted spells, Subdual damage, Monks, and paralyzing poisons, he began to set up ambushes for adventuring parties, to survey them.

Spring an ambush on the party, wiht a heavily protected group (Perhaps each person having a SHield Other with an adjacent cleric hiding off and healing themselves). Before anyone gets killed, have them stop, and critique the party.

Then maybe follow the above example.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Well, I see it differently.

You say everyone's having fun. But you aren't having as much fun, because you're having to pull punches in combat.

Instead of trying to force the players to "study up" I'd simply start running combats with the enemies at -2 or -3 CR. The loss of power will mean that you'll be challenged to "make up" for the CR deficit by playing the villains to the hilt, but the PCs should still be able to prevail, even without very good tactics.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Well, I see it differently.

You say everyone's having fun. But you aren't having as much fun, because you're having to pull punches in combat.

Instead of trying to force the players to "study up" I'd simply start running combats with the enemies at -2 or -3 CR. The loss of power will mean that you'll be challenged to "make up" for the CR deficit by playing the villains to the hilt, but the PCs should still be able to prevail, even without very good tactics.

Good point, Lord Pendragon! That is a challenge I look forward to.

Though I should specify that I am having a lot of fun. I just want them to learn from my style rather than, or as well as, suffering from it.

I was also wondering what methods people used to try insert lessons into the game and what external resources are out there.

At this point I'm really tempted to find an old dungeoneer's survival guide. Photocopy out some select passages, rebind it in a blue folder, and claim it's an 'old school' gaming tome. I'd be interested to see how their tactics would change with input even that dimuntively different from my own.

I'm relatively new to this group, and part of my motivation is to both convert them into loving me more and to challenge them to discover their hidden depths, or at the very least those depths that are hidden from me.

Though I should also point out that they are really good at certain aspects of tactics and combat, just frustrating poor at making it all hang together. So I've found that adjusting for their style of play is pretty difficult.

Most of the time they do all right, but its the instances of unexpected mass slaughter that really worry me.

 

[Drakmar]

um.. this may be out of line.. but have you thought of telling your players that their tactics are.. somewhat..um.. lacking?

personally.. I would just tell them that.. and then slowly start ramping up your monsters and using better tactics.