How do I get better tactics from my players?

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Oh My!!!

I would almost laugh with relief if my characters did send in a flying improved invisible hasted mage with a maximized fireball coming on line.

While I would prefer some middle ground in which I did in fact have a good speech for the villain memorized and ready to perform, and I got through to the most dramatic point just in time for the invisible, divinely favored, and hasted assassin to throw a slow poisoned into his back and for all mayhem to come loose as the real villain comes out of his pocket dimension to thromp the PCs who had been lured out of hiding by his fiendish double...

I certainly prefer both of the above alternative to:

Sorcerous Character: I throw my spear in the traditional manner of my people! I miss.

Fighter: I charge at the biggest opponent!
How many attacks of opportunity was that?
Someone come give my character a healing potion.

Wizard: Guys!!! get out of the way, I need to fireball them!!!

Not that I have it that bad, but it can get close.

 

[arwink]

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but if it's an option - recruit another DM as a player.

DM's, for some neferious reason, seem to know all the tricks to twinking out their characters forwards and backwards, and if they don't, give them a link here and they soon will. It seems to be working, slowly, with my players after we introduced a Player-who-mostly-DM's to the mix.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but if it's an option - recruit another DM as a player.

DM's, for some neferious reason, seem to know all the tricks to twinking out their characters forwards and backwards, and if they don't, give them a link here and they soon will. It seems to be working, slowly, with my players after we introduced a Player-who-mostly-DM's to the mix.

That would be a fantastic solution, but it is also one that I feel bad about.

I mostly DM, but with these guys I was a player. I was so relieved to be playing that I played a class I'd never done before and a type of character that I loved out to the hilt. I still played well, but I think I did too little cause of my shyness at disturbing their dynamic and my own selfish desire to do my own thing.

Now I really regret not being more helpful to their tactics. There is a DM in the group, but I sense he is doing the same thing I did. I've thought about just talking to him about making it all work out, but I'm reluctant to step on his groove.

I once had the pleasure of playing in a group that was half-DMs and had a munchkin as a player. That was a freakin blast. Not only did everyone have these wild characters, but they had effective tactics to match. The party was wildly effective beyond its level. We had these third level character relieving besieged garrisons, taking out thieves guilds, and racking up huge debts with the local temple of healers. Not just normal munchkin tactics but lots of roleplay.

We had all learned the lesson that the ultimate munchkin is the one who can convince the gold dragon to come out of retirement in order to do one last good deed for the sake of his honor.

I dream about how wonderful that game was. The perfect mix of ultimate munchkin and ultimate roleplay. Sadly the DM went AWOL. Last I heard he was someplace in Massachusetts. Guess that TPK where we made our last stand both victorious and tragic by burning down a forest to destroy an army of rampaging giants and ourselves was just a little too much for him.

Or maybe it was our idea to maintain party continuity by having our old characters haunt our new ones. Weird characters are certainly the drawback to DM players.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Kengar, I'm copying that lecture and posting it to my group of Living Greyhawk players up here. They're about to make the transition from playing mods designed for 6th level characters to mods designed for 8th level characters so it's quite appropriate.

 

[Corinth]

I would not exactly call it stupidity. Or do you really think it is stupid if DM and players agree to a certain game style (where, f.e., you let the villain make his speech and don't interrupt with "Quickened magic missile! Partial Charge! Ready Action!")? A game where you do not use hasted flying improved invisible mages whenever possible?

In general, it is stupidity. RPGs are not films, comic books, novels or any other storytelling medium. They're games; none of the conventions of storytelling apply. The characters aren't there to satisfy the needs of an author's plot; the characters are there first to act as virtual playing pieces, and second to behave as if they were real people. Storytelling has nothing to do with it at all.

Real people don't wait for the villain to spout his monologue; they shoot the bastard and get it over with. If he's got something to say, then either he'll say it once he's captured or he'll say it long before such a situation comes to pass. Smart characters get the job done first; smart villains do their talking before any chance of getting interrupted arises. Save the conventions for where they belong: in the storytelling media, not in RPGs.

Not everyone wants to play "most efficiently" against the DM.

Quite right; not everyone actually want to play the game. Some want to tell a story; they should be directed to the plethora of writing venues around them, where they will be far better served.

 

[Fenes 2]

In general, it is stupidity. RPGs are not films, comic books, novels or any other storytelling medium. They're games; none of the conventions of storytelling apply. The characters aren't there to satisfy the needs of an author's plot; the characters are there first to act as virtual playing pieces, and second to behave as if they were real people. Storytelling has nothing to do with it at all.

Real people don't wait for the villain to spout his monologue; they shoot the bastard and get it over with. If he's got something to say, then either he'll say it once he's captured or he'll say it long before such a situation comes to pass. Smart characters get the job done first; smart villains do their talking before any chance of getting interrupted arises. Save the conventions for where they belong: in the storytelling media, not in RPGs.

Quite right; not everyone actually want to play the game. Some want to tell a story; they should be directed to the plethora of writing venues around them, where they will be far better served.

I don't play roleplaying games to have my character act as a virtual playing piece. For that I have wargames.

As far as playing it smart goes, I played it "smart" when I started gaming more than 10 years ago. It got old for me. Always looking for the best plan, always looking for the best gear for the job, always looking for that extra edge. Always behaving as I would if in the same situation - minimizing the risks, and maximizing (or trying to) the pay off. For me it was boring. I don't play D&D to be bored. Do you really believe that as soon as you are not minmaxing your PC for optimum effect you are not playing a game anymore?

I resent the remark that I am not playing D&D just because I do not play it your way. I could - but I do not - direct you to wargames. There it is the convention to always optimize your strategy, and do your best to beat the opponents, and there you will be far better served than playing a game where the DM could kill off your PC by divine intervention any day he chooses to. D&D offers a great many different playstyles.

If you still think I am not playing D&D, I may refer you to the DMG, under deep-immersion gamestyle (around p.8 or so, iirc), where the different playstyles are explained.

I hope you will once try playing an adventure where the PCs behave like in the movies, with over-the-top stunts and dramatic but not too efficient manoevres, comedy and slapstick - you may discover that it is fun, or not.

All I can say is that I tried your way for years, and got fed up with it.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

I am super pro stunts and the cinematic approach, but I don't want to miss out on the PCs looking for an edge. On the idea of developing some sort of plan that works, and having fun playing a game...

...but more importantly, I think this professional aspect, role-played right, can enhance the cinematic experience. The arming sequence is a tried and true part of the genre and the elaborate caper is the centerpiece of heist movies. The joy of DnD vs something like Feng Shui is that it makes those aspects of the metagenre much more meaningful and involved.

Plus, for me, there's something less than satisfying about being the kids in Starship Troopers vs. being the guys from Sneakers or even Rambo and there is nothing better than being the Leon from the professional. I want my players to feel like they are playing real bad asses and they will feel that way best by working for it.

I'm not looking to whine and somehow cause them to change, I'm just looking for ways to make the game as helpful as possible towards them getting their enjoyment.

Again, I cannot stress how pro cinematic I am. My homerules and style of play all encourage witty banter and wild stunts and moments of humor and drama and even tragedy.

This isn't about discouraging that element of the game, this is about bringing all the styles of play into one messy messy uber style that will dazzle the players the same way the messy messy literary style of Lewis Carrol's Alice in Wonderland makes it the single weirdest best-beloved book for people of all ages every created.

It's all about the cheese. I just want my players to enjoy the stinky harsh cheese in addition to the kind they put on their arby's sandwhiches.

 

[Black Omega]

Ah yes, literary v. rpgs is an interesting contrast. Part of what I like about early Black Company novels is the sheer trickiness they use sometimes. They definitely would hit the bad guy witha quickened magic missile if they had it.

But that's not too tough to handle. Once the group gets a rep for 'kill first, then ask questions' let a devious villain set up a situation where that works against them.

As far as tactics go, the group I rtun for often has bad tactics. I think part of it is the 'we're a group of individuals' approach so common among PC heros. When I play, I often take a concept that lets me be the tactician. But the main thing is that the players and the GM are having fun.

If their bad tactics do get frustrating, it never hurts to have a more experienced adventurer comment on it and maybe offer a couple of standard suggestions.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I haven't read the whole thread. Lots of long responses.

Please tell me I am not the only one whose immediate thought was a brief, "TPK on a regular basis."


Wulf

 

[hong]

Please tell me I am not the only one whose immediate thought was a brief, "TPK on a regular basis."

"We had to kill the campaign in order to save it"?


Hong "wuss" Ooi