D&D 5E How do I make a challenging investigation for a high level cleric?

[Novastrike]

I have a session coming up where my party (lvl 12-15) has to track down an NPC. I've got everything planned out, but my level 15 cleric (who is higher level than the rest because of a lucky draw on the DoMT) has a tendency to surprise me and pull out high level spells to try and shortcut the entire encounter.

I don't know the cleric class very well, so I'm looking for thoughts on what spells he might try to use to track someone down, and what (if any) actions I should take to counter those spells (or even use them against him).

My end goal is to make sure the encounter offers enough challenge to keep everyone interested, not to screw over the players.

The setting for the encounter is a small, partially deserted town in the middle of nowhere...the person they are looking for was captured during a raid on the town so they'll most likely get clues/leads from other NPCs, as well as survival/tracking type skills.

 

[devincutler]

Find the Path can be troublesome if the cleric can articulate a location in such a way that a secret hideout becomes easily findable. The cleric must be familiar with the location and it must be specific, but as I read the spell, once he knows about a bad guy (such as his name) he can Find the Path to XXXX's Lair.

True Seeing will get him through any illusions or shape changing magic, so disguised villains are out.

Etherealness can let him walk through walls, and spy or eavesdrop on pretty much anyone anywhere.

Divination and Commune are less troublesome because the DM gets to decide if the powers know the answer and can be cryptic. However, I find that in investigative scenarios these are go-to spells for the PCs, so the DM should, beforehand, figure out the most likely Divinations and Communes and have answers ready. In the former case, I try to have some interesting cryptic poems or visions that strike a balance between giving away the adventure and being useless.

 

[Prism]

To add a few others in. I tend to look for ways that a spell caster can help with information from their spells without getting an instant answer.

Scrying will allow the cleric to see the NPC's current surroundings with no range limit. Maybe a good way to provide hints but no full answer

Locate creature will help when the party can get within 1000 feet

Knowledge clerics can read thoughts and help determine if anyone is lying.

 

[discosoc]

Find the Path can be troublesome if the cleric can articulate a location in such a way that a secret hideout becomes easily findable. The cleric must be familiar with the location and it must be specific, but as I read the spell, once he knows about a bad guy (such as his name) he can Find the Path to XXXX's Lair.

Find the Path does nothing if you aren't familiar with the location. It doesn't matter how well you know a specific person who's currently at the location either.


As for the OP, you have a few things to keep in mind. First, the whole point of having spells is to be able to use them, so it should be considered a good thing for him to do so. I wouldn't advise looking to "counter" his attempts outright, for the sake of making the adventure work out the way you want, unless it's actually part of the adventure. For example, the NPC knows he's being tracked and has gone to great pains to hide his location from normal divination magic. He can still be tracked with mundane methods, and the cleric could probably start using charm and such on other people that might know his location, but otherwise it could make for a fun subplot where they players have to bring down whatever is magically shielding him (not to mention discover the identity of that item/person/boon/etc).

Other than that, I really can't imagine tracking down someone like this is a great encounter for 12-15 level characters. By this point, they should have way more important things to be doing, and could probably hire someone to do the tracking for them while they are busy with other stuff. If the encounter is just one part of a bigger plot, then don't worry so much about finding the guy being the difficult part. A level 15 cleric isn't exactly the kind of person who has to do things like this the "hard" way.

Remember, this is a guy who has a 15% chance each day to get his deity involved if he wants to. If your encounter depends on him not using magic to find the villain, then you probably need to reevaluate the scope of the encounter.

 

[devincutler]

Find the Path does nothing if you aren't familiar with the location. It doesn't matter how well you know a specific person who's currently at the location either.

Yes, and the question is what comprises "familiar"? The sparse example in the PHB merely says you cannot search for "a green dragon's lair", which implies you CAN search for the lair of the green dragon Axlorath the Invincible. By that reasoning, if the PCs are investigating to find a big baddie and they Find the Path to his lair, the spell would work.

Lacking that, how do YOU define "familiar"? Having seen it or already been there once? Doesn't that make the spell pretty useless?

I do agree if you are looking for Glimix the Mad you cannot Find the Path to "show me where Glimix is right now.". But you could use it to "show me the way to Glimix's underground lair" whether he is there or not.

 

[Xaelvaen]

Spellcasting can circumnavigate a lot of mundane gameplay, granted. I have a simple method for dealing with this, however, that leaves me satisfied with the investigative portion of my adventures, and still leaves my magic-using characters feeling a great accomplishment through their spell choices.

Its called layering.

So you have NPC (we'll call him Bob) who is in the big bad Headquarters. Instinctively, your party will want to go straight to the source and get to Bob. What I want to do, is have it so the players are convinced to use their magic on Ed instead. During the simple investigation, perhaps they are misled to pay attention to Ed. Better yet, Ed is Bob's twin and it causes spells to go a little screwy. Now the party had to use investigation to even discover Ed exists. Now your magic user may want to use spells to find Ed quickly, but all that occurs from finding Ed, is that he tells you Bob is really the guy you're looking for. Now the caster can use even -more- magic and do the same thing for Bob, but using two spell slots usually invokes more second-guessing than one.

Another method I use for layering is the rumor mill. If the whole town thinks that the Headquarters where Bob has been taken to is filled with 'Great horned demons by the score' (CR 20 Balors), no sane cleric will burn up their spells when a simple investigation can take place. Even if the encounter at the end of the rainbow turns out to be 20 shocker lizards instead, the investigation still took place, and players will feel accomplished, and rather amused at the simple-minded nature of the townsfolk.

Finally, I use a layering method of making the adventure harder or easier, based on magic use. In example, I'll throw in a clue that will convince the cleric to use his divination spells to uncover a related, but different event that will somehow make the adventure that much easier. In example, Bob was taken to the headquarters, but his sister Margaret is missing. You convince the cleric that while Margaret may not be the primary mission, or the primary target, finding her would be incredibly useful - such as her having a means of communicating with Bob over vast distances. Of course, Bob may not answer once she's found, or he may not know exactly where he is, but can describe the massive pack of Ogres guarding him. In any event, the party receives a reward to alter the encounter significantly for their 'side' efforts.

Typically, I try to use all three methods liberally, well organized as to seem like its all going in a straight line, when in truth, the players are more making circles. In my experience, once a spell caster has used his magic productively for the advancement of the investigation one or two minor times, they'll be fine with letting the more mundane investigation continue on its course. That way, everyone has played to their strengths.

 

[discosoc]

Yes, and the question is what comprises "familiar"? The sparse example in the PHB merely says you cannot search for "a green dragon's lair", which implies you CAN search for the lair of the green dragon Axlorath the Invincible. By that reasoning, if the PCs are investigating to find a big baddie and they Find the Path to his lair, the spell would work.

You could only use Find the Path to find Axlorath's the Invincible's lair if you are familiar with that specific lair. Knowing his/her name doesn't make you familiar with it. If the PC's are investigating a big baddie they would still need to be familiar with the actual location of the lair for the spell to work. The reason the spell lists the green dragon lair as an example is because it's not specific enough (the dragon probably has multiple lairs). Just like the spell would fail if they cast Find the Path to find "mountains" or something; it needs to be a specific place that's being found.

Lacking that, how do YOU define "familiar"? Having seen it or already been there once? Doesn't that make the spell pretty useless

I define "familiar" as the word is intended. Well known by the person, or with good knowledge/information. Someone describing the location doesn't make it familiar (well known) to you. Reading about it in a book might make it familiar to you (via investigation or spending some time in a library, for example). Talking to a raving lunatic who recently escaped the place and has direct, recent, first-hand knowledge also would possible make it familiar to you (via some charisma checks and/or insight to figure out the useful information from the lunacy).

Keep in mind, Find the Path is for locations, not people. So in the case of Axlorath the Invincible, a character would have to research information about his lair, but knowledge of the dragon itself wouldn't really help. It's the lair that's important.

I do agree if you are looking for Glimix the Mad you cannot Find the Path to "show me where Glimix is right now.". But you could use it to "show me the way to Glimix's underground lair" whether he is there or not.

Only if you know enough about his lair for the GM to feel like your character is familiar with it. Again, it has nothing to do with Glimix. It's the lair that's important. So if you're tracking Glimix and lose him, it's not a matter of stating "show me the way to Glimix's underground lair" because the location is nothing close to being familiar to you.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I don't know the cleric class very well, so I'm looking for thoughts on what spells he might try to use to track someone down, and what (if any) actions I should take to counter those spells (or even use them against him).

You could use several possible approaches.

You could rule that any spell which might screw up your game simply fails, with or without some convenient reason. Simple, effective, doesn't require knowing the spells in advance. You can make figuring out why the spell failed part of the mystery. Magical McGuffins can work for that.

Or, you could thoroughly familiarize yourself with the cleric spell list and plan counters for each spell he might use. Counters that don't simply block the spell, but keep the mystery going or deepen it or allow it to unfold that the desired pace. D&D has had such things as amulets of non-detections and warded rooms and even lead sheeting to mess with such things. And the quarry can always cleverly abuse magic or preparation, as well. He could use an illusion (or just clever set dressing and a deception check) to make the area he's in appear like a very dangerous area familiar to the PCs. The PCs scry him, recognize the surroundings and waste a lot of time/effort/hps searching it.

You could make the 'mystery' a minor part of the adventure with interaction and combat taking up the slack.

You could take the opposite tack, and instead of trying to block information-gathering, have it yield /extra/ information and clues that deepen the mystery or distract from pursuing it. When they scry him, he's in an unfamiliar area filled with unsettling pre-human architecture, and it takes esoteric research to identify the obscure ruins. Find the Path takes them through an area that presents a distracting side-quest. True Seeing reveals a gang (npi) of dopplegangers in the midst of an unrelated plot. Divination/Commune/whatever issue crytpic warnings only tangentially related (that do lead to the PC dealing with other pressing dangers).

My end goal is to make sure the encounter offers enough challenge to keep everyone interested, not to screw over the players.

That can be a problem in itself. Mysteries and pursuit don't intrigue every player, depending on what your group is like, letting the Cleric cut to the chase may suit the temperaments of some of them better than drawing it out so they all get to participate...

 

[devincutler]

The term "familiar" is clearly subjective and up to the DM to define.

This is the dictionary definition I would use:

Having fair knowledge; acquainted

I would suggest that if the PCs know Glimix dwells in an underground cave complex somewhere in the Sunset Hills that would be enough.

Of if Axlorath the Invincible lairs in a cave in the Wood of Sharp Fangs, that would be enough.

Clearly you set a higher standard for familiar, which does serve to protect your scenario secrets but also makes a 6th level spell pretty useless in most circumstances (since it is usual that doing the research or questioning you require would usually turn up the location anyways).

Your raving lunatic example is a good example. So this guy who has firsthand knowledge of the location and you have the PCs role play and make Charisma checks enough to glean from him the nature of the place but he doesn't say where it is? That's a pretty fine gyration there and a very tiny hole in which to apply Find the Path.

Its a 6th level spell with a costly focus requirement AND a requirement that you have an object from the location in order to cast it. It should at least be made useful.

 

[discosoc]

I would suggest that if the PCs know Glimix dwells in an underground cave complex somewhere in the Sunset Hills that would be enough

Except that Find the Path requires knowledge of the location. A specific person tied to that location doesn't mean anything. Take your example, and remove "glimix" from it, and you're asking Find the Path to find "an underground cave complex somewhere in the sunset hills." It's not specific enough. What if glimix dwells in 1 of 10 such complexes, rotating between them? You'd have to know of a specific 'underground cave complex" for the spell to fire off.

My point is, you have to already have a location in mind, and you need to know at least a little bit about the location. These examples with "glimix" and a dragon and such, require the player to assume such a location exists, and is unique in being the only one of such locations.

Also, people are forgetting that even if you do satisfy the requirements, either because you know about the specific location or because your GM is relaxed with the rules, the spell still only tells you the shortest direct path to that location. It doesn't take into considerations anything like natural hazards or roads or anything. A group relying on that spell like a crutch could find themselves blundering into all kinds of crap.