D&D 5E How do I make a challenging investigation for a high level cleric?

[Saeviomagy]

What does creativity have to do with it? I could nerf any number of high level spells and then thump my chest saying ooh look I crippled all these spells but gosh I am so creative I can think of obscure uses for them.

One shouldn't need to get "creative" with a 6th level spell to have it provide any utility whatsoever.

Drawmij's instant summoning, arcane gate, programmed illusion and guards and wards would all seem to be counterpoints to that.

 

[devincutler]

Drawmij's instant summoning, arcane gate, programmed illusion and guards and wards would all seem to be counterpoints to that.

Why would instant summoning require creativity to be useful? Having the ability to, on the face of it, have items you need appear when and where you want them to seems pretty useful.

Guards and wards? Um...guard your stronghold or keep. Again, what's the supposed creativity necessary to use the spell?

Programmed illusion? I guess in that you have to think of something appropriate to make an illusion of, but that's the entire point of the spell. Again, it doesn't require gyrations to use. It is pretty much always usable.

Arcane gate? Again, useful on the face of it.

There's a difference between spells you CAN use creatively and a silly requirement that makes Find the Path almost entirely useless without very specific gyrations. Every spell you mention has obvious, multiple, flexible, and widespread application that accomplishes what the spells intend.

Leomund's Tiny Hit is useful on the face of it as a place of refuge and rest. The fact that you can use it creatively to, for example, block off a passageway so that the PCs can tactically pass through it in battle but enemies cannot, is above and beyond its on the face utility.

 

[Sunseeker]

Depends, is he a clever high-level cleric? Then probably not much. But props to him for being clever!

My best suggestion would be lots of false leads and magical counter-defenses.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Why would instant summoning require creativity to be useful? Having the ability to, on the face of it, have items you need appear when and where you want them to seems pretty useful.

At 1000 gp per summoning for objects that weigh only 10 pounds, can't be done if someone else has the object, requires preparation and an object that will likely be taken off you with the rest of your gear. It sounds good, but the restrictions make it hard to get any mileage from.

Guards and wards? Um...guard your stronghold or keep. Again, what's the supposed creativity necessary to use the spell?

You throw 6th level spells and this thing produces minor distractions. It doesn't cut the mustard without you taking further measures that make use of it.

Programmed illusion? I guess in that you have to think of something appropriate to make an illusion of, but that's the entire point of the spell. Again, it doesn't require gyrations to use. It is pretty much always usable.

Programmed illusion does nothing that lower level illusions can't, except trigger automatically. Finding a scenario where you use it and not another spell is non trivial.

Arcane gate? Again, useful on the face of it.

Again, what is the situation where it does something you need? When you have an army that need to get past something impassable. Typically a fair bit of work to arrive at that point.

There's a difference between spells you CAN use creatively and a silly requirement that makes Find the Path almost entirely useless without very specific gyrations. Every spell you mention has obvious, multiple, flexible, and widespread application that accomplishes what the spells intend.

Leomund's Tiny Hit is useful on the face of it as a place of refuge and rest. The fact that you can use it creatively to, for example, block off a passageway so that the PCs can tactically pass through it in battle but enemies cannot, is above and beyond its on the face utility.

The spells I listed give niche bonuses for their precious 6th level slot. Find the path has situations where it is useful I'll, and those situations are where you want to get back to somewhere. Like the spells I listed, you probably won't even prepare it unless you need to do what it lets you do. Making it the ultimate bad guy lair finder is not conducive to a fun game.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

Unless you are trying to hide a particular secret for a big reveal later, it's probably better to focus on how you can empower the other PCs to gather useful information and generally feel worthwhile than how to block a particular character's divinations. It's frequently a good idea to put a couple challenges in front of the PCs that are extremely difficult or dangerous to overcome if approached in the wrong way. One can then put clues as to how best to circumvent these challenges in diverse places for the PCs to find. For example the PCs might be able to track the direction a raiding party left. Some old geezer about town might be able to tell the PCs what sort of monsters live in that direction. A survivor of the raid might be able to tell the PCs what abilities or weaknesses the raiders seemed to possess. A particular merchant might possess a map of oases in that direction. Or know that the sand-leviathan that lives in the wastes over there can't distinguish anyone cloaked in red from the desert sands. A former soldier might be familiar with how the raiders tend to assemble themselves and could tell the PCs that the front door is likely guarded by 1000 soldiers whereas the back entrance is usually left alone. A historian might possess a map of some old ruins where the raiders might be holed up. The right prayers or divinations might provide something else entirely.

Almost all divinations possess some clear and built-in limitations that help protect the plot. Familiarizing one's self with the list previously mentioned is probably a good idea. The ones I personally tend to have the most difficulty with are Divination/Legend Lore because they sort of require the DM to make up cryptic phrases on the fly. So if my players are likely to use those spells, I try to have something suitable prepared if I can predict what they are likely to ask about.

 

[devincutler]

At 1000 gp per summoning for objects that weigh only 10 pounds, can't be done if someone else has the object, requires preparation and an object that will likely be taken off you with the rest of your gear. It sounds good, but the restrictions make it hard to get any mileage from.

Not at all. You seem to be viewing it as a spell that summons some item you need while imprisoned (hence your comment about being taken off with the rest of the gear). That is not what the spell is for. It is a great spell for stealing items (like rare books from a library). It also is great for planting items on creatures and tracking them. It is also good for smuggling items like weapons or magic items into situations where both are prohibited and screened for. All of these are specific uses of the spell contemplated by the spell. Add to that the ability to deliver valuable and possibly sought for items without risking theft, and while the spell is situational, it is also fully functional and usable as written.

You throw 6th level spells and this thing produces minor distractions. It doesn't cut the mustard without you taking further measures that make use of it.

Minor distractions? It is meant to ward your stronghold from assault. A 50% chance at EACH intersection to take the wrong way? That's worth the spell on its own! Think about an enemy army trying to assault your stronghold with this thing going. With the suggestion ability and some nice mechanical traps placed at choice spots this spell can make a stronghold a death trap, especially to normal troops.

Programmed illusion does nothing that lower level illusions can't, except trigger automatically. Finding a scenario where you use it and not another spell is non trivial.

Except when it is used to leave a detailed message (including, perhaps, visual directions and a map) to friends, or drive people invading your stronghold into a pit trap. The trigger automatically is the selling point of this spell and it's pretty huge. Are you going to use it in the middle of a fight? No. But is it an awesome spell outside of combat? Yep. As a DM I have used it plenty against the PCs.

Again, what is the situation where it does something you need? When you have an army that need to get past something impassable. Typically a fair bit of work to arrive at that point.

Not counting the various uses of this spell offensively to shoot or divert an object through it for what basically amounts to indirect fire (like diverting a river into a dungeon or lava or flaming oil), this spell is quite useful for moving not necessarily armies (though it has that usage) but groups of creatures larger than teleport or dimension door can handle. Beyond that, its duration allows for a raid into an enemy dungeon or stronghold and then a retreat avenue out of it which, since it is concentration, can be dismissed so that the enemy cannot follow. Arcane Gate is almost certainly the ultimate commando raid spell.

The spells I listed give niche bonuses for their precious 6th level slot. Find the path has situations where it is useful I'll, and those situations are where you want to get back to somewhere. Like the spells I listed, you probably won't even prepare it unless you need to do what it lets you do. Making it the ultimate bad guy lair finder is not conducive to a fun game.

The spells you listed have specific functions that make them useful in a variety of situations. They might not be useful in the middle of combat by a 4 man PC team running through Rise of Tiamat, but they are very useful spells in campaign situations where PCs have strongholds or are engaged in more than 4 PC dungeon runs.

 

[Saeviomagy]

It is a great spell for stealing items (like rare books from a library). It also is great for planting items on creatures and tracking them. It is also good for smuggling items like weapons or magic items into situations where both are prohibited and screened for. All of these are specific uses of the spell contemplated by the spell. Add to that the ability to deliver valuable and possibly sought for items without risking theft, and while the spell is situational, it is also fully functional and usable as written.

It's no good for stealing, or smuggling, because anywhere that lower level magic won't do the job will notice you carrying large sapphires with names invisibly scribed on them. A one off trace is ok? But it really depends on what your dm thinks "roughly" means.

The spells you listed have specific functions that make them useful in a variety of situations. They might not be useful in the middle of combat by a 4 man PC team running through Rise of Tiamat, but they are very useful spells in campaign situations where PCs have strongholds or are engaged in more than 4 PC dungeon runs.

And find the path can let you navigate from anywhere to anywhere you have been. Not always useful, but neither are those spells I listed.

 

[seebs]

There are anti-divination spells, like mind blank. Provides immunity to "divination spells", including even wish. Now, that's an 8th-level spell, but a 17th-level baddie isn't necessarily out of scope for a high-level party, and things like scrolls of mind blank, or an amulet of nondetection, are pretty reasonable.

 

[devincutler]

It's no good for stealing, or smuggling, because anywhere that lower level magic won't do the job will notice you carrying large sapphires with names invisibly scribed on them. A one off trace is ok? But it really depends on what your dm thinks "roughly" means.

Smuggling would still work quite well thank you. If I need to get into a king's castle to assassinate someone and weapons are not allowed in the castle, this works fine. The sapphires? How about part of my jewelry I wear? Need to steal a rare book from the closely guarded library? Go in, cast the spell while perusing the tome, leave and summon it to you.

There is nothing indicating the sapphires look different or radiate any sort of magic, is it is arguable that even detect magic would stop this ploy.

And find the path can let you navigate from anywhere to anywhere you have been. Not always useful, but neither are those spells I listed.

And a 6th level spell that lets only find your way to SOMEPLACE YOU'VE ALREADY BEEN is the height of stupidity and, I guarantee you, not RAI.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Smuggling would still work quite well thank you. If I need to get into a king's castle to assassinate someone and weapons are not allowed in the castle, this works fine. The sapphires? How about part of my jewelry I wear? Need to steal a rare book from the closely guarded library? Go in, cast the spell while perusing the tome, leave and summon it to you.

Situations where Drawmij's summoning is actually the best spell to use take a fair bit of contrivance. Both the scenarios you list have lower level solutions that don't cost thousands of gold.

There is nothing indicating the sapphires look different or radiate any sort of magic, is it is arguable that even detect magic would stop this ploy.

The spell states that the object gets an invisible mark, and the sapphire has the name of the object invisibly scribed on it. Detect invisible would have to be the number one go to spell of magical security. There is also an active, dispellable magical effect on both. If that's not detectable with detect magic, then nothing is.

And a 6th level spell that lets only find your way to SOMEPLACE YOU'VE ALREADY BEEN is the height of stupidity and, I guarantee you, not RAI.

It lets you escape any maze. That seems good to me, even before you use it to mark every way out of the underdark or use it to find which way does not lead you back to the entrance to the dungeon.