D&D 5E How do I make a challenging investigation for a high level cleric?

[jgsugden]

On the flip side: Don't make it interesting. Your PCs are high level and have acces to high level spells. Finding someone shouldn't be hard. That is a challenge for low level PCs. They have access to magics that are intended to make certain things trivial - so allow them to be trivial.

Instead, make the drama inducing difficulty something else. Perhaps the challenge will be getting to the person. Perhaps they'll plane shift away as soon as the cleric and party teleport to them.

Allowing PCs to benefit from these "shortcut" spells may prevent certain things from being challenging, but it also allows the PCs to feel that they are powerful - which is what makes high level adventuring different than low level adventuring.

 

[Novastrike]

That can be a problem in itself. Mysteries and pursuit don't intrigue every player, depending on what your group is like, letting the Cleric cut to the chase may suit the temperaments of some of them better than drawing it out so they all get to participate...

The other players at the table actually ENJOY the mystery/pursuit aspect, which is why its such a struggle. The cleric wants to skip to the fights and the other players are starting to feel a bit disgruntled, like they're in a monster of the week game. My goal is really just to slow things down a bit and let them have more time to use different skills and get some good role playing in.

 

[discosoc]

Its a 6th level spell with a costly focus requirement AND a requirement that you have an object from the location in order to cast it. It should at least be made useful.

It's one of many examples of a spell that's only situationally useful. It's the kind of spell that a group needs to prepare for in most cases (such as obtaining an object from that location), probably some RP and/or researching or whatever. Because if it doesn't have interesting aspects about it's casting, then it's really just a 6th level spell that duplicates the function of a few skill checks (survival, investigation, insight, charisma mostly) involved with finding the location the good old fashioned way.

Make the casting important.

 

[iserith]

I have a session coming up where my party (lvl 12-15) has to track down an NPC. I've got everything planned out, but my level 15 cleric (who is higher level than the rest because of a lucky draw on the DoMT) has a tendency to surprise me and pull out high level spells to try and shortcut the entire encounter.

The first thing I would do is examine whether or not the premise of my adventure is suitable for adventurers of this caliber.

I don't know the cleric class very well, so I'm looking for thoughts on what spells he might try to use to track someone down, and what (if any) actions I should take to counter those spells (or even use them against him).

Cleric Divination Spells By Level:

1st - detect evil and good, detect magic, detect poison and disease.

2nd - augury, find traps, locate object.

3rd - clairvoyance, tongues.

4th - divination, locate creature.

5th - commune, legend lore, scrying.

6th - find the path.

I recommend giving them a read. This list does not include domain spells (if any apply).

My end goal is to make sure the encounter offers enough challenge to keep everyone interested, not to screw over the players.

If those that captured the NPC know they're being investigated and have access to resources that can counter some (but not all) of the above spells, use them. But here's the important part in my view: You have to telegraph to the players that the kidnappers have access to a way to counter their magical resources. This way it will not be perceived as a gotcha when they try certain things only to find that they don't work.

The setting for the encounter is a small, partially deserted town in the middle of nowhere...the person they are looking for was captured during a raid on the town so they'll most likely get clues/leads from other NPCs, as well as survival/tracking type skills.

Finally, remember that figuring out the location of the NPC isn't the end of the adventure. If they figure it out quickly, perhaps at the cost of some resources, good for them. The difficulty of a challenge should, in my view, increase or decrease based on the decisions the players make.

 

[devincutler]

Except that Find the Path requires knowledge of the location. A specific person tied to that location doesn't mean anything. Take your example, and remove "glimix" from it, and you're asking Find the Path to find "an underground cave complex somewhere in the sunset hills." It's not specific enough. What if glimix dwells in 1 of 10 such complexes, rotating between them? You'd have to know of a specific 'underground cave complex" for the spell to fire off.

My point is, you have to already have a location in mind, and you need to know at least a little bit about the location. These examples with "glimix" and a dragon and such, require the player to assume such a location exists, and is unique in being the only one of such locations.

Also, people are forgetting that even if you do satisfy the requirements, either because you know about the specific location or because your GM is relaxed with the rules, the spell still only tells you the shortest direct path to that location. It doesn't take into considerations anything like natural hazards or roads or anything. A group relying on that spell like a crutch could find themselves blundering into all kinds of crap.

That's fine. You have elected to make a 6th level spell pretty much useless. That's your prerogative. I, on the other hand, think a 6th level spell should have definite utility and I would recommend people play it as I have suggested and would argue that's how the spell is intended. I think the requirement that you have an object from the location sought serves admirably as a DM tool to preserve secrecy when required and stop the PCs from casting the spell constantly as a pure shot in the dark. In fact, I would suggest that the requirement to have an object from the location is, itself, sufficient to be familiar, since the PCs are going to have to realize they have an object from the location and specifically use it to cast the spell.

 

[devincutler]

On the flip side: Don't make it interesting. Your PCs are high level and have acces to high level spells. Finding someone shouldn't be hard. That is a challenge for low level PCs. They have access to magics that are intended to make certain things trivial - so allow them to be trivial.

Instead, make the drama inducing difficulty something else. Perhaps the challenge will be getting to the person. Perhaps they'll plane shift away as soon as the cleric and party teleport to them.

Allowing PCs to benefit from these "shortcut" spells may prevent certain things from being challenging, but it also allows the PCs to feel that they are powerful - which is what makes high level adventuring different than low level adventuring.

I agree with this. The game has certain stages based on party level. Once you have teleport and scrying, wilderness travel can become a thing of the past. Once you have dimension door and ethereal travel, walls stop meaning much. Same with mystery scenarios. They are much better used at lower levels.

 

[discosoc]

That's fine. You have elected to make a 6th level spell pretty much useless. That's your prerogative. I, on the other hand, think a 6th level spell should have definite utility and I would recommend people play it as I have suggested and would argue that's how the spell is intended. I think the requirement that you have an object from the location sought serves admirably as a DM tool to preserve secrecy when required and stop the PCs from casting the spell constantly as a pure shot in the dark. In fact, I would suggest that the requirement to have an object from the location is, itself, sufficient to be familiar, since the PCs are going to have to realize they have an object from the location and specifically use it to cast the spell.

If you think it makes the spell useless then your level of creativity is a bit below mine. That's fine, just don't fault the spell for it.

 

[Psikerlord#]

On the flip side: Don't make it interesting. Your PCs are high level and have acces to high level spells. Finding someone shouldn't be hard. That is a challenge for low level PCs. They have access to magics that are intended to make certain things trivial - so allow them to be trivial.

Instead, make the drama inducing difficulty something else. Perhaps the challenge will be getting to the person. Perhaps they'll plane shift away as soon as the cleric and party teleport to them.

Allowing PCs to benefit from these "shortcut" spells may prevent certain things from being challenging, but it also allows the PCs to feel that they are powerful - which is what makes high level adventuring different than low level adventuring.

Yeah I think there is some truth to this. High level PCs are good at ruining mysteries.

If you really want to persist however, I think you should make it blatant that the usual divinations arent going to work this time. Give the NPC a ring of mind shielding, and/or some other magic item, or protective spell, that prevents him from being scryed. The players will quickly learn there is something special going on here, that the mystery is a big part of the adventure, and when their usual divinations don't work they'll move on to more traditional detective techniques.

If this is a theme you haven't used for a while, I suspect they'll find it a pleasant change and good fun.

 

[Tony Vargas]

The other players at the table actually ENJOY the mystery/pursuit aspect, which is why its such a struggle. The cleric wants to skip to the fights and the other players are starting to feel a bit disgruntled, like they're in a monster of the week game. My goal is really just to slow things down a bit and let them have more time to use different skills and get some good role playing in.

Ooh, that is a thornier issue. Do you think the Cleric's player is just doing so to get to the fight, because he finds investigation boring, or doing it because he can, to solve the problem or display the character's abilities?

 

[devincutler]

If you think it makes the spell useless then your level of creativity is a bit below mine. That's fine, just don't fault the spell for it.

What does creativity have to do with it? I could nerf any number of high level spells and then thump my chest saying ooh look I crippled all these spells but gosh I am so creative I can think of obscure uses for them.

One shouldn't need to get "creative" with a 6th level spell to have it provide any utility whatsoever.