How Do Metamagic Rods Work For Preparation Spellcasters?

[Hypersmurf]

If you check the original sourcebook (Tome & Blood), there is an extra sentence in the middle that goes like "For instance, having a rod of energy substitution does not confere you the Energy Substitution feat to qualify for Energy Admixture" (or something similar).

Exactly - you can't qualify for Energy Admixture, because the rod doesn't grant you the Energy Substitution feat; it grants you the ability to use the Energy Substitution feat.

"The wielder can cast up to three spells per day that are enlarged as though using the Enlarge Spell feat" says it all. It's not "the wielder can use the feat 3 times".

It's not 'the wielder can use the feat' despite saying 'the rod confers the ability to use the feat'?

-Hyp.

 

[billd91]

It's not 'the wielder can use the feat' despite saying 'the rod confers the ability to use the feat'?

-Hyp.

I think there's a difference in nuance between "Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day" and "The wielder can cast up to three spells per day that are empowered as though using the Empower Spell feat".

The first sentence could be construed as using the metamagic feat in the normal way, via spell prep for preparation casters. But the second sentence does not say they use the feat, rather that they can cast 3 spells per day empowered as though using the empower spell feat. That sentence seems to support casting on the fly. The user isn't actually using the feat, but casting a spell that behaves as though it is affected by the feat.

A poorly explained item to be sure. Hence the importance of the FAQ for clarifying what was meant by it.

 

[wildstarsreach]

Indeed - how it is written doesn't reference spontaneous casting at all; it references sorcerers.

If you use the reference of spontaneous casting on Pg 88 of PHB, it talks about sorcerers and bards in regards to spontaneous casting.

When a bard uses a metamagic rod, does casting time increase? The item description doesn't say.

If you answer that yes, casting times increases, then do you think that when a wizard uses a metamagic rod, casting time increases?

If your answers were yes and no, respectively, can you justify that in terms of what's written in the item description?

-Hyp.

Page 88 of the PHB states for both bards and sorcerers, as well as clerics casting spontaneous healing that the application of metamagic feats increases the cast time to full round.

This should also apply to new classes such as the Duskblade which also spontaneously casts spells.

I say yes to extending the wizards ability in which a metamagic rod is applied to a spell as cast. The description of the rods talk that use of the rod still provokes and AoO when casting a spell. This gives two things, it doesn't raise the spell level which spontaneous caster gets as well and allows the application of a metamagic feats on the fly while using the rod which spontaneous casters already have. It doesn't allow a third benefit which by the majority interpretation doesn't increase cast time for the wizard.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I say yes to extending the wizards ability in which a metamagic rod is applied to a spell as cast.

Do you mean extending the casting time?

-Hyp.

 

[wildstarsreach]

I think there's a difference in nuance between "Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day" and "The wielder can cast up to three spells per day that are empowered as though using the Empower Spell feat".

The first sentence could be construed as using the metamagic feat in the normal way, via spell prep for preparation casters. But the second sentence does not say they use the feat, rather that they can cast 3 spells per day empowered as though using the empower spell feat. That sentence seems to support casting on the fly. The user isn't actually using the feat, but casting a spell that behaves as though it is affected by the feat.

A poorly explained item to be sure. Hence the importance of the FAQ for clarifying what was meant by it.

Good logical deductive reasoning. This is the reason that gives the majority their impression.

I have a question though. Why are there a few that disagree with the FAQ when it disagrees with what they want? I'm not trying to berate anyone but the FAQ is for our benefit.

 

[wildstarsreach]

Do you mean extending the casting time?

-Hyp.

Yep indeedydyooooo!

 

[Hypersmurf]

Yep indeedydyooooo!

Right. I agree; if anyone uses the Rod at casting time, it should extend that casting time.

... now what do you do with the Quicken Rods?

-Hyp.

 

[Thanee]

Okay, why is is that you think it doesn't? Now just because the majority, 75% think it is at the time of casting, that may not make us right. The other alternative is the majority is seeing it clearly which is supported by the FAQ.

Just to be clear, I totally agree with this, and I think I have posted in my very first post on this thread, that I'm absolutely aware, that the current official rule is different to my own view.

Rules as written lead more towards at casting than preparation...

Huh? There is not the slightest indication, that it would be used spontaneously.

It might be an intuitive impression gained when reading the paragraph, I will gladly agree to that, but there is really nothing in there, which actually says so, and which does not also work equally well in that other context.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

... now what do you do with the Quicken Rods?

Give them to me, so I can sell them for half value!

Bye
Thanee

 

[airwalkrr]

I can say from experience that these rods applied at casting time do not imbalance the game.

I can say the same thing. And I can also say the opposite at the same time. I have seen campaigns where metamagic rods used this way were not abused. I have seen campaigns where they were abused being used this way. For that reason, I tend to err on the side of caution and say that a loose interpretation (such as that of the FAQ) is unbalancing and therefore possibly incorrect. Spontaneous application of metamagic feats should be the domain of the sorcerer. Wizards are limited in that they must prepare spells in advance but advantageous in that they have a greater arsenal of spells at their disposal. Seeking ways to uphold the intentions of the core rules is not necessarily a bad thing, and using the intentions of the core rules to guide one's interpretation is not a bad thing either.