How Do Metamagic Rods Work For Preparation Spellcasters?

[Hypersmurf]

A wizard with a metamagic feat decides to retrain using the process in PHB 2. He prepares his spells USING his metamagic feat. He loses this metamagic feat. Can he still cast these memorized spells even though he lost the feat?

... you know, I'm not sure?

I'll want to check the PHB before answering, in case there's information that isn't in the SRD...

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

Here's a question:

A wizard with a metamagic feat decides to retrain using the process in PHB 2. He prepares his spells USING his metamagic feat. He loses this metamagic feat. Can he still cast these memorized spells even though he lost the feat?

Sure, why not?

The spell slot is still higher. The spell slot is still in use. The spell is still prepped.

Metamagic feats for spells cast by prep casters modify the spell at prep time, not at casting time.

During preparation, the character chooses which spells to prepare with metamagic feats (and thus which ones take up higher-level spell slots than normal).

How is this different than a Wizard who preps a spell and then loses his spell book?

 

[gnfnrf]

Here's my take.

According to the intro to metamagic rods, Hyp is right, and it's applied at preparation time for prepared spellcasters. The "ability to use the feat" is pretty clear on that.

But, that's not how I voted, because all of the specific rods say something different.

They say "can cast up to three spells a day that are empowered as though using the Empower Spell feat." and so forth. They don't say that you actually use the feat AT ALL! They just say that the spell is cast in a state AS THOUGH you used the feat (which, in fact, means that you didn't use the feat.) And if all they do is apply the effect of the feat on the spell, then everyone uses them at casting time, just like it says.

This is, to me, inherently contradictory. In one place, you use the feat, and in the other place, the spell is effected as though you had used the feat. Normally, the difference would be too subtle to matter, but here, it is huge.

The only way I can reconcile this is to say that "the ability to use the feat" is a very bad way of saying "the ability to apply the effects of the feat". It's a stretch, but it's better than saying that each rod is actually saying "cast up to three spells a day which, at the appropriate time for your class, you applied the Empower Spell metamagic feat to without increasing the spell level using this item, which is also limited to three uses per day."

--
gnfnrf

 

[Twowolves]

OTOH, the spontaneous use errata creates even more imbalances between spontaneous and prepared casters (as if pearls of power weren't enough), and makes the metamagic rods even more powerful, than they already are. Not the most sensitive ruling, if you ask me.

So, because it is not "fair" to sorcerers, and it makes metamagic more powerful, it can't possibly right? Rings of Wizardry and Incense of Meditation are not "fair" to sorcerers either. Can it not be that the entire purpose of the metamagic rods were to make metamagic "even more powerful"? There is clear precedent in the rules for some items being better for some weilders of magic than for others, so I'm not buying that arguement.

It is absolutely not odd, because that is what most consider the easiest (though I fail to see what's really easier there in practice), and it is also somewhat intuitive when you look at the rod's descriptions.

It's so intuitive, it can't be right?

It only requires a minor clarification, that you cannot use a rod to metamagic more than 3 spell slots at a time, which does not really limit them further, but only removes issues to deal with metamagicked slots, that cannot be used to cast anymore, once the 3/day uses are used up.

So, one FAQ-issued minor clarification doesn't suit your ruling, so you suggest another, in addition to the already extant ruling that is 100% counter to how you and Hyp read the item? In other words, instead of the FAQ, and the LG campaign ruling, and the intuitive first reading my many, your/Hyp's ruling requires about 3 times more words to describe how you think the rods should work than what the rules and FAQ already state? Simple!

 

[takasi]

Sure, why not?

"The modifications made by these [metamagic] feats only apply to spells cast directly by the feat user. "

This indicates that you must have the feat at the time of casting in order for the modifications to apply.

Again, if the rod descriptions say:

"the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day"

and the only specification of usage is during casting then the conclusion should be that preparation is not involved at all.

The preparation restriction is in the feat desription, but remember that the rod "does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day".

It specifically says that sorcerers must increase their casting time to use these rods.

It does not specifically say that wizards must prepare their spells as they would if they actually had the feat.

The FAQ specifically says that wizards do not need to prepare their spells as they would if they actually had the feat.

Something for DMs to think about when making their decisions.

 

[Thanee]

This rod's special power is to be used at casting.

There is absolutely nothing in the rod's description, that says so.
Everything that is said there also applies when the rod would be used during preparation.
And... the rod's description does state (indirectly, but still), that it is used during preparation. It does not state, that it is used during the casting.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

If we are to assume that Thanee and others thinking at the point of memorization is right, then x wizard prepares a fireball with a maximize rod. Later he decides to scribe that spell to scroll. It is at the 3rd level for purposes of xp and monetary costs. But he gets a maximized scroll. This is abusive. At the time of casting is the only way to proceed.

Huh? Where is this a problem with the preparation-interpretation?

When you create a scroll, you have to cast the spell (once per day). You could use the rod there either way.

But that doesn't matter, since magic items are not priced like this. When you make a scroll of maximized Fireball you are making a scroll with a 6th-level spell at 11th caster level, it doesn't matter how you get the spell into the scroll. But that's another topic and has nothing to do with this here, really.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

...I'm not buying that arguement.

It's not an argument, just an explanation.

It's so intuitive, it can't be right?

It could be, but it isn't, because it breaks existing rules, and thus it's wrong.

So, one FAQ-issued minor clarification doesn't suit your ruling...

It's not a clarification, it's errata.

Simple!

I never said it's simple. I said it's more fair, better, consistent with the rules as presented in the core rulebooks, and many other things, but not that it's simple (it's surely not complicated, though).

Bye
Thanee

 

[takasi]

There is absolutely nothing in the rod's description, that says so.
Everything that is said there also applies when the rod would be used during preparation.
And... the rod's description does state (indirectly, but still), that it is used during preparation. It does not state, that it is used during the casting.

Where does it state, even indirectly, that it is used during preparation?

It does state it is "use activated".

It does state it can only be used "a specified number of times per day".

The only time the description specifies a number of uses per day is during casting.

In order to cast a metamagic spell you must have the metamagic feat (or have a rod that emulates this feat), thus requiring a use of the rod during casting (note the wielder requirement). Where does it specify the number of times per day that you can use the rod during preparation? It doesn't.

Also, why do you think the description would specifically say a sorcerer must increase his casting time? If this was implied as you believe it is for a wizard's preparation then why would they need to specifically state this additional rod requirement for a sorcerer? Why make the additional statement for a sorcerer (which should be obvious according to your interpretation) but not add this statement for a wizard's preparation?

 

[Thanee]

Here:

Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day.

How metamagic feats are used is explained in the PHB feat section.

Also, why do you think the description would specifically say a sorcerer must increase his casting time? If this was implied as you believe it is for a wizard's preparation then why would they need to state this again? Why state this but not the requirement for a wizard???

Because whoever wrote the description was rather bad at writing magic item descriptions.
I hope s/he learned how to do this properly in the meantime.

It makes absolutely no sense to place this restriction in there (especially not for only sorcerers, amongst all the spontaneous spellcasters; and there is more than one of those in the PHB even), and have it in effect, but none else.

It makes absolutely no sense, that wizards can suddenly use metamagic spontaneously (and thus are lifted from their usual restrictions when using metamagic) and without any increase of casting time either, while sorcerers, who already know how to use metamagic that way, suffer from their usual casting time increase. That's badly balanced, inconsistent and very much stupid.

Bye
Thanee