how do new scores affect hp, after polymorphing?

[FrankTrollman]

How about Bestow Curse? That's neither damage nor drain, AFAIK. It's a simple decrease and should be able to kill someone with a low Con (like 7) and bad rolls for hit points (never gotten more than 1 hp during level up).

Of course not.

Constitution modifiers to hit points are only a roll modifier, and they can't reduce any of the rolls to less than 1. So Bestow Curse can't kill someone unless they are already damaged to the point where they would already be dead with their new hit points.

You seem to think there is something magical about the Constitution Modifier that makes it not function like a modifier but instead be some form of hit points in and of itself or something. I don't know where you got that idea.

It's just a modifier, like any other. It is added to every hit die roll. If the modifier is negative, it can't reduce any hit die roll to less than 1. That's it. From there you follow absolutely all the normal conventions of bonuses/penalties that would apply to an Insight Bonus, an Enhancement Bonus, or a Dexterity Bonus.

-Frank

 

[Hypersmurf]

Actually - no you can't.

It's an example of how Con is not truly "retroactive".

If I (Rog6, say) begin with a Con of 8, and I roll:

6,6,6,1,1,1

... I have a max hit points of 18 - 5,5,5,1,1,1.

If my Con then drops to 6, I have a max hit points of 12 - my modifier has changed from -1 over 6 HD (-6) to -2 over 6HD (-12), and my max drops by 6. Since it has not fallen below a total of 1 per hit die (6), that clause doesn't kick in.

However, if I began with that Con of 6, those same rolls (6,6,6,1,1,1) would give me a max of 15 (4,4,4,1,1,1) since not only is my total compared to my number of hit dice, but each individual roll cannot drop below 1... so three of those hit points that got lost when the Con dropped from 8 to 6 in the first example are not lost when the second example levels up.

Two characters, with identical Con (6) and identical rolls (6,6,6,1,1,1), but different numbers of hit points.

-Hyp.

 

[Thanee]

Ok, then where does it say, that a roll cannot result in a negative number?

i.e. skill roll, untrained with stat of 6. Roll of 1. Result? +1 or -1?

I might have missed that rule, but at least I do not know of any, which sets a minimum of 1 for every roll in the game.

Bye
Thanee

 

[FrankTrollman]

So what about my three quotes, which all say, that new hit points are indeed added to the total and not a new total is calculated and the old replaced with it (which is, what you claim, if I got you right)?

They are mathematical shortcuts so people don't have to look up the chart every time. Some of the strength bonuses helpfully remind you that you now add +2 more to-hit and some of the dexterity bonuses helpfully remind you to add +2 to AC. This doesn't mean that the modifiers are divided up in any way shape or form - it means that the authors know that you are really lazy and want to see the net effects of the change right next to the ability. If you for some reason had some overriding reason why your hit points would change by some other amount (like, for instance, you had a hugely negative Constitution modifier and were already benefitting from the "can't be reduced below 1/level" rule) or you had some reason keeping you from getting AC from Dexterity (such as being flatfooted or wearing heavy armor) - those helpful math shortcuts don't override anything.

-Frank

 

[Hypersmurf]

It is added to every hit die roll. If the modifier is negative, it can't reduce any hit die roll to less than 1.

At the time the die is rolled.

But subesequently, the total modifier is only compared to the total, not to each individual roll.

A decrease in Con after a roll can reduce a given hit die below 1, if the other rolls were not all 1s as well.

-Hyp.

 

[FrankTrollman]

Ok, then where does it say, that a roll cannot result in a negative number?

i.e. skill roll, untrained with stat of 6. Roll of 1. Result? +1 or -1?

I might have missed that rule, but at least I do not know of any, which sets a minimum of 1 for every roll in the game.

Bye
Thanee

Huh?

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

That's a special rule of Constitution. It's on page 9 of the PHB.

It's an example of how Con is not truly "retroactive".

No. It's a reinforcement of the fact that the Con Modifier rules always apply.

In your example of the Rogue with rolls of 6,6,6,1,1,1 - if he took 2 points of Con damage to a Con of 6 he'd have hit points of 4,4,4,1,1,1 - a total of 17. Hit points can't fall below 1/level - counted for each level individually.

And yes, I did see Sage confirmation on that one in 2001.

-Frank

 

[Thanee]

They are mathematical shortcuts so people don't have to look up the chart every time.

LOL

those helpful math shortcuts don't override anything.

So, what in the book tells me when they are speaking of a rule, or just giving a shortcut?

And where (you still havn't given any useful quotes) is that rule, you speak of?

And I also havn't seen a general rule yet, which says, that hit points cannot drop below 1/hit die. They cannot during the process of rolling new hit points, and they cannot as a result of Con damage or drain. But this isn't a general rule, which applies to all possible cases.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Huh?

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

That's a special rule of Constitution. It's on page 9 of the PHB.

It's just a modifier, like any other. It is added to every hit die roll. If the modifier is negative, it can't reduce any hit die roll to less than 1. That's it.

That was what I was referring to... and yeah, you were only speaking of the hit die rolls there. Thought you were referring to a more general rule that aplies to all rolls! My bad! Sorry for the confusion!

Doesn't change the rest, tho.

Constitution modifiers to hit points are only a roll modifier, and they can't reduce any of the rolls to less than 1.

This sentence probably made me think the above.

You extrapolate the rule (the one you quoted above), that hit points can't drop below 1/hit die due to Con damage or drain to a general rule. The book limits the application of this rule, so it's not general.

Bye
Thanee

 

[FrankTrollman]

You extrapolate the rule (the one you quoted above), that hit points can't drop below 1/hit die due to Con damage or drain to a general rule.

No. The general rule is stated on page 9 of the PHB: that a Constitution penalty can never drop the results of any hit die below 1. This rule is restated in the DMG under Ability Score Loss as it is highly relevent to Ability Score Loss as relates to Constitution.

I don't have to extrapolate the restatement of the general rule as reagrds a specific case to another specific case - there's still nothing in the rules that says that Constitution reduction can ever drop hit points below 1 for a hit die. The general rule for negative Constitution modifiers is already in place, so it totally applies when your Constitution is low from Bestow Curse, Spider Poison, Blood Drain, Reincarnating as an Elf, or just rolling really bad in the first place.

And where (you still havn't given any useful quotes) is that rule, you speak of?

Page 7 of the PHB.

Each ability, after changes made because of race, has a modifier ranging from -5 to +5. Table 1-1: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells (on the next page) shows the modifier for each score.

Right. Constitution is an ability. It gives a modifier based on the table on page 8. Continuing:

A positive modifier is called a bonus, and a negative modifier is called a penalty.

Right. So the modifier from Constitution is a named bonus, and follows the rules of a bonus - including that it does not stack with like bonuses and that it applies as a single monolithic number, rather than as a series of discrete differentiable units.

Now, we skip to page 9:

You apply your character's Constitution modifier to:
* Each roll of a Hit Die (though a penalty can never drop a result below 1

So Constitution is a named bonus or penalty applied seperately to each hit die and it can't lower any individual result below 1.

If a character's Constitution score changes enough to alter his or her Constitution modifier, the character's hit points increase or decrease accordingly.

So the modifier is recalculated every single time the modifier changes.

So if a wizard with rolls of 4,1,2,3 has a Con of 11, he has 10 hit points. If his Con drops to 7 because of some poison he has 5 hit points. If he gains 4 con points from Bear's Endurance he now has 10 hit points again. If he goes down to a Constitution of 1 because of a lot of Poison he now only has 4 hit points. If his Constitution goes up by 10 back to 11 because of restoration or something he doesn't gain 5 hit points per level - he just goes back to a +0 modifier and has 10 hit points again.

You are way over thinking this. You just have a series of hit die rolls from 1st level on to 20th and each of them is modified by your current Constitution. Nothing fancy - no special rules take over if you have a reduced Constitution when you go up in level, and you don't have some kind of whacky "partial Constitution modifier" ever.

-Frank

 

[Hypersmurf]

No. The general rule is stated on page 9 of the PHB: that a Constitution penalty can never drop the results of any hit die below 1. This rule is restated in the DMG under Ability Score Loss as it is highly relevent to Ability Score Loss as relates to Constitution.

It's not restated, though.

The rule in the DMG is different.

"If a character’s Constitution score drops, then he loses 1 hit point per Hit Die for every point by which his Constitution modifier drops. A hit point score can’t be reduced by Constitution damage or drain to less than 1 hit point per Hit Die."

If you have 6 hit dice, and you lose one point of Constitution modifier, you lose 1 hit point per hit die - 6. Your score (note the singular, denoting the total, not individual rolls) can't be reduced to less than 1 hit point per hit die - 6.

When you gain a level, you roll your hit die, apply your Con modifier, and cannot drop that roll below 1. Then you add it to your hit point score.

It is the result of the roll that cannot drop below 1. After that, it is no longer a discrete unit, but merely part of the total.

The rule for Con loss - damage or drain - is that the hit point score cannot drop below 1 per hit die... not that an individual hit die cannot drop below 1.

-Hyp.