D&D 5E How do players know they are in the "wrong" location in a sandbox campaign?

I love sandboxes because it means players just talk to a lot of encounters. Because they have no idea how bad-ass some of those people can be.

They also have to get out of some situations by negotiating, or bribing, or running - say, when they're on the road and see a huge Orc war party on the horizon. If it's a strong 'narrative' game it can feel personal if the DM has a group shake the characters down before letting them proceed.
 

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I didn't say don't give options. If anything I am advocating the clarification of options through role play. It's still up to the players to decide where they want to go. The OP asks "How do players know they are in the wrong place?". I simply spelled out a way they can be more informed beforehand. In no way was I advocating anything close to punishment "every time they try to color outside the lines". Of course that will "cause problems" for players expecting a sandbox. My point is if you are playing a sandbox that will have greater consequences for venturing to certain areas at the wrong time, then you as a DM need to find a way to make sure the PCs are provided with enough information so they can make their own informed decision on the proper course of action with the amount of risk they are expecting.

I realized that's not what you were advocating, hence why I said "You have to be careful doing this..." instead of "This is a bad idea...".

Having an NPC that allows the DM to interact with the PCs in-character can be good. But, done wrong, it can degenerate into the NPC-questgiver-railroad. Ideally, the NPC should be able to offer the PCs a number of options (rumors he's heard, etc) and additionally act as a sounding board for player ideas (you want to explore the West Marches... I don't know about that... you realize that place is infested with trolls don't you?). If the main quest doesn't offer good alternatives, sprinkle in a few side quests to broaden their choices. What you don't want to do is have only one real option where Elminster tells the players, "Go here and do this". Because if the players tell him to get off his bony old butt and do it himself... now what?
 
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There are no wrong places in a sandbox campaign. No matter where you go, there you are, in just the right place. If that happens to be fighting a demon lord at 1st level, you're just in the right place to die.

Hey, it was that or stay at home and grow turnips.

Well, ideally if you run into that demon lord at level 1, the DM chooses to be generous and rather than decorating his lair with your innards he offers you a deal. Just because you CAN kill the PCs doesn't mean that it's the most interesting option. IMO, of course.
 

The "getting kicked the cr@p out of them" part is the one I want to avoid. For me it is a question of player agency: If the players *choose* hard, then hard is okay. If the players chose between "left or right?" with no additional information, it isn't okay if left is much harder than right. I'm not a sadist DM.

That's why you foreshadow danger. But there also has to be room for the players to mess up.

For example, in one of our sessions, the players stumbled upon a massive plesiosaur resting on a nearby rock. One of the players reasoned that since it was on land, they could easily take it. Plesiosaurs are aquatic creatures after all.

All I did as a DM, was correct this notion. I told them: Despite the plesiosaur sitting on a rock, you estimate that it probably got up there voluntarily, and with ease. Basking in the sun seems to be a common thing for these creatures to do. You have no idea how fast it is on land, but its neck is quite long, and its teeth are numerous. It might make for a challenging foe regardless.

They then decided that picking a fight with the beast was probably not a good idea. While the prospect of selling the creature for lots of gold was tempting, the prospect of an angry plesiosaur messing up their ship was less so.

I always give them useful information, but I never tell them that they can't go in a particular direction. That is part of the fun of a sandbox. They are allowed to make mistakes.
 

That's why you foreshadow danger. But there also has to be room for the players to mess up.

For example, in one of our sessions, the players stumbled upon a massive plesiosaur resting on a nearby rock. One of the players reasoned that since it was on land, they could easily take it. Plesiosaurs are aquatic creatures after all.

All I did as a DM, was correct this notion. I told them: Despite the plesiosaur sitting on a rock, you estimate that it probably got up there voluntarily, and with ease. Basking in the sun seems to be a common thing for these creatures to do. You have no idea how fast it is on land, but its neck is quite long, and its teeth are numerous. It might make for a challenging foe regardless.

I wouldn't have even gone that far. The player made an assumption. He or she did not verify that somehow by taking action in the game. You know what they say about assuming. As long as I've done an adequate job describing its size and destructive potential, I've set up a fair situation. It's on the players in my view to verify their assumptions before acting on them - or pay the price if they're wrong.
 

I'm guessing most DMs will tweak their game to take account of the quirks of their particular players. Saying you will give the PCs one chance to escape when they are over their heads doesn't necessarily work as intended when there is one player who never retreats. Granting players the consequences of their actions is typical advice for sandbox play, but if one or more PCs never learn and keep making the same PCs and the same choices, it can start to feel like punishing the other players who never get the chance to play smart, or like the DM repeatedly beating his head on a brick wall.

You need to run your game with the players you've got, not the players you would like to have. Or get new players.
 

Even in a sandbox IMO the DMs job is to tempt, challenge and yes even manipulate the decision making process- you want player agency and you throw out fishing lines and wait for a bite but have lots of options at your disposal (eg using NPCs) to encourage/guide the decision making process when the party decide which rumour (hook) they want to follow up.

IMO you need a hook to start the adventure. Simply saying you are in town what do you want to do? Is not always enough, give each player a clue or two at the start of the game as to possible dangers/adventures in the area. Even setting them up with a little quest to kick the campaign off. In my own Greyhawk PoTA campaign, I started the players off as members of the local militia to avoid 1-2 sessions of wandering around aimlessly “looking” for an adventure. They were tasked with patrolling a road where bandits had attacked caravans recently and this ended up with them being strafed by some vulture flying cultists who they decided to follow back to their lair and it was game on from there.

The smart party will soon realise that NPCs can be a useful way to minimise/mitigate danger by informing them of possible dangers in different areas- hill giants are said to live in the Lortmil mountains over there. An orc warlord is rumoured gathering troops in the Dreadwood for who knows what purpose. A dragon was spotted circling over the Good Hills a few weeks back. If players want to follow up on one of those rumours then sweet we’ll roll with that.

IMO the problem with sandboxes can be decision paralysis- give players too many options and they will freeze, unsure of which way they “should” go or in my groups case decide half way through that “the adventure is too tough let’s bug out” and they wander off to do something else instead (leaving me with a half finished adventure and lots of consequences to sort out- which can be a good thing).

These days I tend to limit to a couple of possible hooks/rumours etc in town when they are looking for their next job but if the party really wants to go and slay that dragon that was spotted in the hills then that’s cool, we’ll roll with that- in fact a “random” encounter with a dragon lead the party to the Moathouse and a show down with it (I’m using the original Hommlet as a base and used the 3E version of the ruined Moathouse of RttToEE).

I’ve enjoyed the aspects of PoTA I’ve run but the campaign has a possible flaw in that it is a sandbox yet still expects in some ways level appropriate dungeons- in my experience if players bust into one of the upper temples then they will want to explore all of it including the links to the lower levels- that is where the adventure can run into problems and may need DM (divine) intervention to rescue. Sly Flourish as some good ideas for minimising the chances of pcs wandering into the wrong temples by having each of the lower temples need a key to access which can leave you with a good lower level sandbox with the upper temples before the party strikes out for the lower ones: http://slyflourish.com/tying_the_threads_of_princes.html

Me though, I’ve only used a few temples as a backdrop vs larger campaign events and not run the whole thing because of player choices/ wanting to follow up on other leads/ adventures. The party had just finished the upper air temple and decided that they wanted/needed more magic weapons (as stuff had gone pear shaped and the cultists had allied with some cloud giants- SKT) and since I don’t have any magic shops they dug round and researched and learned that some weapons were said to be hidden somewhere within White Plume Mountain far to the north… so off they have gone way up north on a road trip to find some weapons (my own weapons not the original WPM ones). We may get back to Princes eventually but who knows when?

Stormdale
 

[MENTION=6691663]Tobold[/MENTION] - on further review it's only just now occurred to me where you're possibly having problems:

You're trying to run what is intended to be a one-after-the-other adventure chain (which PotA more or less is) as a sandbox.

Were it me, what I'd do to make it more of a true sandbox would be to do away with the overarching storyline*; then take all (is it 15?) modular adventures or chapters that make up the chain, turn each one into an individual stand-alone adventure (most of them would work just fine for this) and scatter them around your game world along with various other adventures, encounters, and so forth as you see fit.

* - thus removing any worry about having to hit the adventures in any particular order.

Now you've got a sandbox, or at least a reasonable facsimile. Drop the puck, turn the PCs loose, sit back, and enjoy. :)

Lan-"also note that there's a wide variance in the quality/playability of the individual adventures in PotA"-efan
 

There are no wrong places in a sandbox campaign because players should be allowed to play the game the way they want to play it. No fate but what we make. FREEEDDOMMM! etc etc
 

Hey!

As [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION] above notes, the first thing to observe is that Princes is not that sandboxy. It would be more accurately described as a megadungeon split into many parts; there are thirteen dungeons (Air, Earth, Water, Fire each x3, Fane) and a plot that moves the party into first interacting with the dungeon. My biggest disappointment while DMing it was that there was really no reason for the party to ever leave the dungeon; it's hard to build drama around the destruction of Womford if the players react to it by simply saying, "Ever onward!", rather than leaving to deal with the aftermath.

I suggest three things:

1) Make it clear that the adventure is actually very difficult, and that TPKs are very likely if the party move incautiously. My group were given this advice, and still got 2 TPKs, one saved by the Feathergale Knights tossing them off to be rescued by Aaracokra. I don't think that simply warning them is enough, safe to say.

2) Drag the party out of the dungeon. Have them meet starmetal doors that open portals to the elemental plane of fire, and only openable by a special key that you seed elsewhere in the valley. That'll get them out of the dungeon, let them lose the laser-focus on finishing one cult (very easy to acquire), and let you bring in roleplaying and travelling sections that otherwise might be totally lacking.

3) Overlevel them. Heresy, I know! However, if the group are a bit too strong then the worst that happens is they scorn the encounters; being too weak makes them hate the campaign...
 

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