How do we account for healing (and related abilities) for "min-max" or "powergaming"?

[Prestidigitalis]

I see the big value of healing to be reducing the impact of a bad round.

Sometimes you need a specific character NOW, and if he/she just went from full HP to 0 in one turn due to focus fire and a couple of crits, healing is the ONLY thing that will save you. Examples:

The defender who is holding back the big bad monster

The arcane character who is sustaining a critical zone effect

The leader who finally got in position to unleash the big daily that gives everyone +++ to attacks for the rest of the encounter.

 

[keterys]

I actually suspect that a lot of groups use healing they don't need, or could survive more on potions and second wind. And some groups also overload on healing such that they are near invulnerable, potentially facing fewer combats per day, and often just killing things much more slowly. Slowly enough in some cases that they end up taking all the damage they've got in extra healing, just at a net loss in surges.

Last night, the cleric used both healing words, word of vigor, healing strike, and (missed) strengthen the faithful, while the other characters used three potions of vitality and one second wind. A single character fell down, in the final round. Mind you, there were some close calls. Like when the cleric was already bloodied and fell 50 feet into a pit (leaving her at like 9 hp) where a second encounter started.

But, frankly, we overhealed and had more potions of vitality (like another 1-2 each - in fact, since we got like 5 for clearing out the two encounters, we netted 2) and four more second winds we could use and a daily that gave a surge. And that was one of the toughest encounters we've done, with 2 full encounters at once plus a fifty foot drop (which everyone in the party jumped into).

Which I think implies that we had too much healing in _every other fight we've done yet in the entire game_. And every healing past the minimum to keep people up and going (and sometimes not even that) is basically wasted. Like, my LFR warlord dropped all of his healing powers since our group got so good at killing things that I wasn't even using inspiring words during combat for a great majority of combats (as a test, mind you, to see if I needed to).

So, yeah, healing is powerful, but frankly it's boring. And Astral Seal and pacifist healer and the new cleric turn option and the way hospitaler's mark used to work are, while totally neat ideas that fill a good niche, probably bad for the game as just 'too much'. Especially Astral Seal on certain characters.

 

[Ryujin]

Our party has four out of five members capable of healing. Our Cleric is also MCed to Warlord. My Warlock doubles as a Bard. The Ranger and Fighter are both multi-Clerics. It doesn't really matter all that much when we end up running through 3 encounters in a row, without so much as a short rest. It also doesn't count for a lot when we're stunned or dazed.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

So, yeah, healing is powerful, but frankly it's boring. And Astral Seal and pacifist healer and the new cleric turn option and the way hospitaler's mark used to work are, while totally neat ideas that fill a good niche, probably bad for the game as just 'too much'. Especially Astral Seal on certain characters.

Yeah, I have real serious problems with surgeless healing. CLW as a daily to tide you over in a real emergency situation at the end of a hard day was OK. I think Recovery Strike and Astral Seal are just plain bad, PERIOD. Recovery Strike is really the worst offender of the two. The STR cleric with 21 STR at level 7 and a good WIS can trivially pump out enough healing with RS to keep the fighter going AND do significant damage at the same time, all without anyone expending a surge. I'd say since she switched to RS use of surge based healing has dropped drastically. To be honest the main impediment to RS is simply getting the right character in position to reap the benefit, but delay seems to be a big boon for the party there.

 

[keterys]

Recovery Strike heals 2 less than Astral Seal and is less likely to hit when repeatedly used, so it mostly depends on how valuable the damage output of the rest of your party is... ie, whether -2 to defenses vaguely compares to your own damage. The cleric in my party does about 20 damage per hit with a 1W, while the rest of the party does 120+ if it collectively hits, so -2 to defenses actually turns our damage into more damage than Recovery Strike itself does. Astral Seal also works with Cha/Wis builds which will heal more by dint of having Charisma.

Either way, it's quite a bit of healing for little work. Enough to negate the damage of some creatures.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Recovery Strike heals 2 less than Astral Seal and is less likely to hit when repeatedly used, so it mostly depends on how valuable the damage output of the rest of your party is... ie, whether -2 to defenses vaguely compares to your own damage. The cleric in my party does about 20 damage per hit with a 1W, while the rest of the party does 120+ if it collectively hits, so -2 to defenses actually turns our damage into more damage than Recovery Strike itself does. Astral Seal also works with Cha/Wis builds which will heal more by dint of having Charisma.

Either way, it's quite a bit of healing for little work. Enough to negate the damage of some creatures.

The CHA mod isn't really the significant part though. Every cleric will be adding in WIS mod to that as well due to Healer's Lore. Healer's Implement tosses on an additional +enh bonus, etc. So really most of the benefit ends up being things other than CHA mod in most cases. Select some appropriate items and you can stack on even more.

I agree, Astral Seal is an issue as well and its certainly the better choice for CHA/WIS builds. I think it was foolish of the designers to introduce ANY at-will surgeless healing. It violates one of the design tenets of the game and super healer builds make things even worse.

 

[Mengu]

I also have to agree that too much surgeless healing is bad for the game. In our group of 6, we get by on my warlord's Inspiring Word, and I usually only need one of them in a standard encounter. In difficult encounters I might use two. And our paladin has a couple lay on hands and our rogue has bard multi-class for emergencies (which some day's doesn't get used at all, but she got it mostly for the skill training). In the super tough encounters we start using potions, second wind, etc. and I would pull out a healing daily. I feel this is a good balance, and any more reliance on healing would mean we are not dealing with encounters efficiently enough.

Astral Seal rubs me the wrong way as an at-will power, and pacifist healer is just an unfortunate option for the types of games I like to play and run. I like to see stuff die, and fast.

Every game and group has it's own dynamics though. Some DM's might make encounters so hard that you need that ultimate healer to survive, and those games often have one encounter per game day (or session). Some players don't like thinking too much tactically, and want to just charge in right and left without much consideration on healing resources, and in those games, more healing and fewer encounters may work for the group. My preference is lots of encounters per day, and minimal healing. None of it is really right or wrong. Just have to be aware of the consequences of each choice.

 

[keterys]

The CHA mod isn't really the significant part though. Every cleric will be adding in WIS mod to that as well due to Healer's Lore. Healer's Implement tosses on an additional +enh bonus, etc. So really most of the benefit ends up being things other than CHA mod in most cases. Select some appropriate items and you can stack on even more.

A mid-level Str-Wis cleric might have a charisma of 12, Wis 20, +3 from items, to heal 9 from Recovery Strike (Str is 22, but doesn't affect this comparison)
An equal level Wis-Cha cleric might have a charisma of 18, Wis 22, +3 from items, to heal 15 with Astral Seal

Ie, an improvement of 67%.

Hence, my disagreement with Recovery Strike being a worse problem. Astral Seal is amping damage by a similar amount via its defense penalty in some groups, and its healing a lot more. Enough that it's equal to the amount of damage that many creatures do in a hit at that level, whereas it's difficult to get Recovery Strike to that level.

When you hear about groups not wanting the DM to call the fight, because they're done to one wimpy guy and they want to beat up on him for a bit to heal from astral seal. Yeah, bad.

 

[Skallgrim]

Given that the most common healing triggers are "per encounter" (being the leader heals), and given there isn't usually much incentive to not heal when one can, I don't see how there being an expected adventuring day length affects the use of healing surges - either you are damaged and you use them, or you aren't and you don't. I just don't see how a standard encounter length of day makes healers more effective.

Now for daily healing triggers, I can see that, but from my own experience those tend to be in the distinct minority and saved for when they are desperately needed, so its not like a longer day would make the party waste these - in either case they would be used when they need to be used.

After all, its not like a party that doesn't know if another wave of monsters is coming in are going to say "Don't heal Jonny - we might need that healing" - indeed, there is more incentive to heal him now if monster might be coming, as he's more likely to end up dead if you don't.

I can only speak from my own experience (and the postings of others that I vaguely remember), but:

If your party knows to expect say, 4 encounters each day, then they can easily budget their healing surges (divide by 4). They know that if they "save up" one from the first fight, they can use it in fight 2 or 3. They know how many encounter level heals the leaders have, and how many they will need to use as a second wind. They can plan on using healing surges after each fight but the last one, where they know that they will be able to take an extended rest.

All of that information and planning allows the party to use healing in the most optimal way in each encounter. They don't waste surges, and they don't waste daily heals.

If, on the other hand, there is more uncertainty, then the party can't always be assured of making the most optimal choice in each encounter. If they think that there will be more encounters than there actually are, they may conserve healing or surges and play defensively when they actually could go on offense. If they guess wrong and there are more encounters than they are expecting, then they might find themselves short on surges or extra daily heals in the last fights.

Giving the players meta-game knowledge like "We always get 4 encounters and an extended rest" allows them to manage their resources more effectively, thus increasing the effectiveness of healing, even though all the healing powers are the same as before.

If Ranger Bob has one healing surge left, but knows that after this fight, he can safely take an extended rest, there's no reason NOT to use a Healing Word during the fight to keep his 'HP buffer' full. If, on the other hand, he might be able to take a rest, or might need to press on, he might want to save that surge, put away his bastard swords of doom, and hide behind a rock and shoot some arrows. This reduces his effectiveness in the fight, in order to allow him to participate in another fight more effectively. If there is another fight, that decision was probably wise. If there isn't, then he reduced his effectiveness in this one for no gain.

That's why, in my experience, an "expected adventuring day length", increases the efficacy of healing. (Note that I am assuming this is a rational expectation from the players, and not "I never had any idea that you might have more encounters, sneaky DM, even though you've done it twelve times before!")

 

[Kzach]

It's generally considered a waste to build a pacifist healer with anymore healing beyond maybe one or two utilities. Everything else should be focused on buffing or debuffing or granting saves.

Granting saves is a very powerful ability. I've been in 2nd-level games where the entire party had three or four conditions on each of them, and it crippled us to the point where we almost TPK'd. If it wasn't for sheer luck of the enemies not recharging their condition inducing powers, we would've been toast.

But if we'd had someone who could grant saves... yeah, totally different story.

More than Healer's Mercy and Healing Word as far as healing goes becomes redundant. But granting saves is always a good thing.