How do we WANT magic to work (Forked Thread: ... medieval war...)

[Loonook]

Really... I like both types. I also love the concept of magic as something a bit more... but I hate magic being an exact qualified equal to science.

I want games where scientific thinkers are learning how to screw around with mystic energies... but I don't just want some silly magitech four-wheeled combustion engine equipped artifice. I want poor spellcasters being blitzed with gas by rogues, stumbling bumbling and unable to cast.

I want mages working on great works, creating entire cities which shift through space and time as is needed through the actions of a thousand casters settling into grand holdings and sacrificing their power to protect the nation. I want to see what happens when spell X is used beyond its normal scope and tested out. I want mishaps, utter failures, and spectacular successes.

I also want a smart group of peasants who can tear that soft-bodied aristocratic hexslinger from heel to head through using their old wise woman's magic. Magic should follow rules, but still be dangerous, mystic, alluring, and hazardous to your health.

Sorcerers aren't necessarily fools.. they just use their own way of doing things. As would a swordmage, or a favored soul, or a cleric. Magic is the manipulation of forces... and that manipulation should be pretty damned unique to each person unless they have received very similar tutelage.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[knightofround]

Yeah, I struggle with this question often. I tend to prefer "natural" magic to "scientific" magic... but I also prefer high-powered campaigns to low-powered campaigns. And its very difficult to run a natural, high-powered campaign without it coming off as something like DBZ.

So I've found "scientific" magic to be an evil necessity in most of my campaign settings.

 

[wingsandsword]

A fighter may or may not know the metallurgy behind his sword, a monk probably doesn't know the anatomy of his arm when he punches (especially concepts like nerve impulses).

A Wizard is an academic character, one that gains power through study and mental devotion. They know how their magic works, that is how it works for them.

A Sorcerer has magic work for them by reflex and intuition. Casting Magic Missile for them comes as naturally as swinging a sword or throwing a punch does for a fighter. When they can't cast anymore because they have run out of spell slots, they know they are spiritually/mentally exhausted for the day and need to rest, but they still know how to do it just as a monk or fighter that knows how to fight but their body is exhausted.

However, a Sorcerer with ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) probably has an understanding of some of the theory behind the spells they cast, but they don't need that to cast their magic.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Want real magic without the feel of scientific experimentation or rigid spell lines? Want magic users who are powerful without being stupidly overpowered or taking up every other character's space? Want a style of magic that's all about your inner willpower reaching into the world and saying "No, you're going to do what I want you to do" instead of some old codger who just sits behind a dusty book all day, reading the newest issue of Magic Weekly?

Man, the answer is really obvious, at least to me. Use psionics!

 

[Particle_Man]

I wish I could sell my friends on psionics.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

I wish I could sell my friends on psionics.

What're their hang ups? 3.5 psionics, power points and whatnot, is a pretty easy system to get, in my opinion.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

You cannot allow players to make use of magic without demystifying it due to the need to codify such access into the rules of the game. Therefore, mysterious magic requires that access to it be through NPCs and nothing else.

I respectfully disagree...to a point. That is to say, you're right that a certain amount of codification is necessary to have effective rules for adjudicating magic for players. But you can still have an air of mystery and chaos.

For example, a spellcaster like the modified Spellfire Channeller I mentioned previously would be pretty free-form in general, and would have the ability to use Spellcraft to mimic the effects of spells (herinafter referred to as "spellshaping").

But since successes in spellshaping would be determined by rolls against a DC (at least in 3.X), your system could include allowances for better-than-expected results for "critically successful" rolls, and unexpected results for "critical failures"- perhaps based on the chart for the Wand of Wonder or some such.

What're their hang ups? 3.5 psionics, power points and whatnot, is a pretty easy system to get, in my opinion.

Personally, I like psionics, but I'm virtually the only one in my group.

Speaking only for the guys in my group, most of them dislike psionics because of the flavor, not the mechanics.

 

[Starfox]

Thus I am consumed by a Hegelian dialectic.

Gee, my late-night post made for philosophical angles!

I like most of what has been said here and agree with most of it - and that's the problem. Magic can take many different forms, all valid, but doing this in a game creates a very confused setting.

I liked how Sorcerers and Wizards worked in 3.5 - that they had the same spells but different methods for using them. In 4.0, we have three degrees (well, we had in 3.5 at the end, but I never used Warlocks in 3.5).

Wizards, Swordmages and Arcanists: Int-based, understand their magic

Sorcerers and Bards: Cha based, instinctual magic. Bards do have Int as a possible secondary attribute.

Warlocks: Has magic as an external gift, Cha or Con based but with Int secondary.

In 3.5 most builds could work on either concept. As 4.0 is now my favored version of DnD, I want this to work there too. I'd like to have a wizardly arcane striker and leader and a spontaneous arcane controller and defender. These could be just reskinning, but reskinning is harder to do in 4.0 than it was in 3.5.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I liked how Sorcerers and Wizards worked in 3.5 - that they had the same spells but different methods for using them. In 4.0, we have three degrees (well, we had in 3.5 at the end, but I never used Warlocks in 3.5).

Actually, even setting aside divine casters and psionic manifesters, we had several methods of spellcasting in 3.5.

1) Vancian Wizards (PHB)

2) Vancian Sorcerers (PHB)

3) Warlocks (CompMage)

4) Binders (ToM)

5) Shadowmages (ToM)

6) Truenamers (ToM)

7) Artificers (Eb)

8) Vitality point system Wizards (UA)

9) Vitality point system Sorcerers (UA)

10) Meldshapers (MoI)

And I'm sure I missed someone along the way, like some kind of Wild Mage, Runecasters, etc., plus classes (Spellfire Wielder, Spellswords, Spellthieves) and feats (Draconic Breath, Infernal Shout) that altered the way spell energy could be acquired, used or channeled.

 

[LostSoul]

You cannot allow players to make use of magic without demystifying it due to the need to codify such access into the rules of the game. Therefore, mysterious magic requires that access to it be through NPCs and nothing else.

Try playing Sorcerer.