D&D 5E How do you adjudicate firing through combatants?

[painted_klown]

I don't generally do fumbles unless the situation seems to really call for it except for one situation: someone has advantage or disadvantage or 2 attacks and rolls double 1s. I feel that should be rewarded. The very first session of our campaign, the TWF fighter rolled double 1s for her two swords. She closed her eyes and swung her blades wildly as she ran in between two of the wolves and out the other side, drawing opportunity attacks from both. A couple months ago, the paladin threw a javelin at long range and rolled double 1s. I rolled randomly for a nearby creature and had the paladin make another attack roll. It was either a hit or a critical and impaled the sorcerer. One of the bad guys rolled double ones with advantage and tripped and fell on his weapon. Each time was lots of fun for everyone including the character who had "bad things" happen to it. Of course, shenanigans happen a lot at our table.

I like this as well. Only have them fall if they roll double 1s. Seems a bit less punishing, and I am sure the players will appreciate not having a penalty for every 1 rolled.

Admittedly, I have not yet DM'd a game (my first will be on Jan 11th) nor have I even played 5E yet (played a bit of Pathfinder only), so my first time playing 5E will be as a DM.

I'm a bit scared, to be honest. I am hoping I don't totally blow it, and make everyone hate the system.

 

[aramis erak]

Hi, all.

I'm wondering how you adjudicate firing missile weapons into (or past) a melee in 5e? I notice, for example that in "half cover," it includes as an example another creature. What if you have to fire past two creatures? Three?

Firing into a melee is handled by the cover rules. See DMG p 251, top of the right column. It reiterates that intervening creatures are cover.

The chance to hit the covering characters is in the option on DMG page 272, "Hitting Cover"...

 

[Tormyr]

I like this as well. Only have them fall if they roll double 1s. Seems a bit less punishing, and I am sure the players will appreciate not having a penalty for every 1 rolled.

Admittedly, I have not yet DM'd a game (my first will be on Jan 11th) nor have I even played 5E yet (played a bit of Pathfinder only), so my first time playing 5E will be as a DM.

I'm a bit scared, to be honest. I am hoping I don't totally blow it, and make everyone hate the system.

Don't sweat it. Everyone was not catching the nuances of 5e when it first came out. So realize you won't get everything perfect and enjoy yourself. You already have some ideas of what you like as / in a DM, that is what will be important, and it transcends versions of games. I started playing D&D with the September 2013 playtest, halfway through the encounters season of Murder in Baldur's gate. Within a couple months, I was covering for the DM, and by January I had taken over as DM. In April we started our Age of Worms campaign which we are a third of the way through. After that, I think I am going to create a Spelljammer style campaign.

 

[painted_klown]

Don't sweat it. Everyone was not catching the nuances of 5e when it first came out. So realize you won't get everything perfect and enjoy yourself. You already have some ideas of what you like as / in a DM, that is what will be important, and it transcends versions of games. I started playing D&D with the September 2013 playtest, halfway through the encounters season of Murder in Baldur's gate. Within a couple months, I was covering for the DM, and by January I had taken over as DM. In April we started our Age of Worms campaign which we are a third of the way through. After that, I think I am going to create a Spelljammer style campaign.

That's awesome. A great way to get into the game, to be sure. What lit the fire under me was a new co-worker who just happened to be a GM for Pathfinder. My friends had half way planned to start a D&D game, so I got really excited about the idea, and started reading a bunch.

My friends elected me to DM for our 5E game (completely different group than the PF group I play with), they just bought me the starter box, and (finally) scheduled out first game for Jan 11th.

One of the players has already read through the free PDF of the basic rules (as well as handing out printed copies to all in the group ), so I need to "get on it" in order to feel comfortable/ready for game day.

I have been lurking in the "specific questions" threads (such as this) more than usual, attempting to learn as much as I can.

My plan for our first session is to give everyone a bit of an overview (all new players too) of the game, and go over some of the rules for combat, and other things, as I understand them, to avoid potential issues arising during actual game play. Try to "iron some things out" (so-to-speak) before we jump in.

I am thinking I will prepare and run Part 1 of LMoP for that session. It seems short enough to make it through in one session, and with all of the stuff going on, I think we will get a good grasp on the dynamic of our play group's style.

Excited and nervous as the same time. I know that probably sounds a bit silly, but it's true.

Thanks for the tips/help, it really is appreciated.

 

[Hriston]

I'm wondering how you adjudicate firing missile weapons into (or past) a melee in 5e? I notice, for example that in "half cover," it includes as an example another creature. What if you have to fire past two creatures? Three?

Notice that the OP is making a specific reference to p. 251 of the DMG here. This is in the section on Using Miniatures. I missed this on my first reading of the post and responded as if Theatre of the Mind were being used instead, which I assume is what Gygax's rules, which I attempted to simplify, were developed for.

Firing into a melee is handled by the cover rules. See DMG p 251, top of the right column. It reiterates that intervening creatures are cover.

The chance to hit the covering characters is in the option on DMG page 272, "Hitting Cover"...

I like these rules very much, although drawing a bunch of lines on a mat still seems a bit fiddley. I especially like that it takes full squares/hexes into account, at least somewhat addressing the issue of simultaneous movement that I and others brought up, by taking into account the full range of a creature's reach. Also of note is that even when all corners of a creature's space are covered it is only counted as 3/4 cover as long as the possibility exists of firing a shot through the spaces between objects or creatures (as through an arrow slit). This looks like a very sensible way to narrow the field of who might be hit by such an attack and is one more reason, for me, to use miniatures.

The rules for Hitting Cover are very good too, but not so useful for the OP, whom I assume had already read this page too, since the question is about how to adjudicate firing through multiple creatures providing cover, whereas the passage on p. 272 only covers whether a single creature is hit. What if there are more than one?

... if that "to hit" roll managed to hit the AC of the intervening creature (random for creatures), then the intervening creature got hit...

I missed this the first time around too, but I believe it's the answer you were looking for. If multiple creatures are providing cover for the target and the attack roll fails to hit by an amount less than or equal to the bonus to AC that the cover provides, then the creature who is hit by the attack could be determined randomly. In which case, the only thing my first post may have added is one possible method for differentiating between multiple targets by size. Of course there remains the possibility of an arrow that missed by more that the amount of the bonus hitting someone standing behind the original target, but a way of determining this eludes me once the creatures in front have been given precedent, and it all becomes that much more fiddley.

Someone mentioned ideas for hitting allies or other intervening creatures: It is hard to come up with fair rules for this type of thing. Most attempts result in counterintuitive results that often feel like you're punishing players randomly. Generally, I prefer to just assume that the allies are coordinating their efforts and are waiting for the right time to strike without risking hitting an ally.

As I've said above, I believe this is what the OP was asking about. I don't see how it is unfair to allow for friendly fire in a situation where a character or monster is shooting arrows in the direction of its friends, especially if the results limit said fire to creatures who are actually providing cover for the target of the attack. Waiting for the right time would be readying an action, which is completely possible, but that time may not necessarily ever come.

 

[aramis erak]

I like these rules very much, although drawing a bunch of lines on a mat still seems a bit fiddley. I especially like that it takes full squares/hexes into account, at least somewhat addressing the issue of simultaneous movement that I and others brought up, by taking into account the full range of a creature's reach. Also of note is that even when all corners of a creature's space are covered it is only counted as 3/4 cover as long as the possibility exists of firing a shot through the spaces between objects or creatures (as through an arrow slit). This looks like a very sensible way to narrow the field of who might be hit by such an attack and is one more reason, for me, to use miniatures.

The rules for Hitting Cover are very good too, but not so useful for the OP, whom I assume had already read this page too, since the question is about how to adjudicate firing through multiple creatures providing cover, whereas the passage on p. 272 only covers whether a single creature is hit. What if there are more than one?

`Use a ruler or some yarn, or a laser pointer, don't physically draw them, just quickly count them.

Which one to hit? the one with the highest AC that the roll hits. Ties go to closest to the firer.

 

[Sadrik]

2e had you adding up values for the melee group and then rolling a die to see where your attack went. The idea being that the melee was a mismash of positional moving and sliding and parrying and slashing and really only getting in one effective attack. Ranged attacks in this case you shot into the melee and you randomly struck an opponent. Larger creatures added more than smaller, i.e. were more easily selected in the random roll. That never sat well for me, I think adding the cover rules is better.

I think it is curious that they decided to make cover an AC bonus rather than an attack penalty like in previous editions.

Just because I don,t recall and do not have my books near me. How is concealment handled? So if you are in fog, and they have cover... What happens?

 

[aramis erak]

I think it is curious that they decided to make cover an AC bonus rather than an attack penalty like in previous editions.

The math works out the same, but most people I've met are faster at adding than subtracting. There are different secondary effects, however, that interact, such as the rule for missing by X amount resulting in hitting the source of cover.

Just because I don,t recall and do not have my books near me. How is concealment handled? So if you are in fog, and they have cover... What happens?

Light Obscurement: Disadvantage on Wis (Perception) based upon sight.
Heavily obscured: effectively blinded. Which includes disadvantage to hit.

 

[guachi]

If you apply disadvantage to cover you will be harming rogues who can no longer sneak attack. I wouldn't be surprised if applying a static +2/+5 to target AC was done to still allow rogues to fire into melee and still get their sneak attack in.

 

[Raith5]

Years ago, we had a house rule that if someone fired through a crowd, and if the reason they missed the target was because of the +2 of cover, and if that "to hit" roll managed to hit the AC of the intervening creature (random for creatures), then the intervening creature got hit (we also at a different time had a reroll if cover was the reason). Sucked to be him sometimes.

This didn't happen often, but it was hilarious fun for the table when an inadvertent PC or NPC got hit because they were in the way. It also forced players to be a bit judicious when just firing through crowds. When I start DMing 5E, I just might bring back this rule because it did give us a ton of laughs over the years.

Like this rule because it provides strong reasons for archers to be mobile and look for good angles. It is gonna a hurt a lot more with the low/flat ACs of 5e.