D&D 5E How do you determine your initial Attributes?

[Umbran]

It does seem like a sensible thing on the face of it, like many other Session Zero discussions. But then a DM needs to worry about enforcing roleplaying standards on top of all their other responsibilities - even if it comes up very rarely, it's still there.

So, I expect you're thinking far too much into this, in terms of how many details and how much cognitive load in enforcement is required between people of generally good intent.

"Hey, Joe, your character there has an Int of 8. How were you thinking of running with that?"
"Well, I figure that's the lower end of average. Basically an Average Joe (yeah, I know, I didn't name myself, get off my case). He can read, and do basic arithmetic, but isn't going to be winning any puzzle-solving championships. While he knows how his own abilities work, he's not going to be a tactical genius. I'm not taking any Int-based skills for him."
"Okay, because I've had some people with Int 8 try to play Sherlock Holmes, and it was really weird. Glad we are on the same page."

The important point here is having the player acknowledge what the stat means up front, rather than allow them to ignore it. And, having had that discussion, you both have expectations (you of his thoughts on approach, him on the idea that stretching up on that might not work out). In all likelihood, you'll never have to refer to it again - having acknowledged things, the player is likely to stick by it. If you do have to visit, you've already established a general reason for it. There'll be no surprise that you think there are limits on what's appropriate for that level of Int. And, you can refer back to the expectations, and dig into why they aren't holding to them.

 

[Vince_Snetterton]

I remeber scientists trying to do intelligence tests on dolphins using similar tasks to ape tests (except geared for sonar and underwater). Didn't work at all. The dolphins didn't care and mostly tried to turn everything into playtime.

On second thought, guess it did work. Dolphins have their priorities straight.

Stealing straight from the great Mr. Adam's, "For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.”

 

[Vince_Snetterton]

I have my players roll 4d6, twelve times, dropping the lowest number from each of the twelve rolls; select the highest six rolls. I don't know what people mean by "none of the above" ~ do they just make up numbers

12 sets....you do realize this creates ridiculously uber stat blocks. That is the equivalent of starting with Sta Array or Point Buy, then handing the player another 4-6 ASI's at level 1. At which point, you as a DM then have to scale up every encounter difficulty to create any type of challenge for the group. I have no idea why DM's put themselves through that extra work.

 

[Maxperson]

It does seem like a sensible thing on the face of it, like many other Session Zero discussions. But then a DM needs to worry about enforcing roleplaying standards on top of all their other responsibilities - even if it comes up very rarely, it's still there. I know I'd much rather fully focus my limited brainpower resources on creating fun challenges and pivoting in the gameplay moment than having to keep everyone's stats in the back of my mind to make sure they don't "color outside the lines".

You're presenting a problem that doesn't exist in my game. I don't have to worry about enforcing anything or making sure they don't color outside of the lines. The expectation is that they roleplay their stats, including a low intelligence. I leave the how of it up to them. As long as the player is making an effort, I don't care about the details.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

So, I expect you're thinking far too much into this, in terms of how many details and how much cognitive load in enforcement is required between people of generally good intent.

"Hey, Joe, your character there has an Int of 8. How were you thinking of running with that?"
"Well, I figure that's the lower end of average. Basically an Average Joe (yeah, I know, I didn't name myself, get off my case). He can read, and do basic arithmetic, but isn't going to be winning any puzzle-solving championships. While he knows how his own abilities work, he's not going to be a tactical genius. I'm not taking any Int-based skills for him."
"Okay, because I've had some people with Int 8 try to play Sherlock Holmes, and it was really weird. Glad we are on the same page."

The important point here is having the player acknowledge what the stat means up front, rather than allow them to ignore it. And, having had that discussion, you both have expectations (you of his thoughts on approach, him on the idea that stretching up on that might not work out). In all likelihood, you'll never have to refer to it again - having acknowledged things, the player is likely to stick by it. If you do have to visit, you've already established a general reason for it. There'll be no surprise that you think there are limits on what's appropriate for that level of Int. And, you can refer back to the expectations, and dig into why they aren't holding to them.

Maybe I am thinking too much about the enforcement angle.

At Session Zero, would you suggest going over each stat with each player?

 

[Vince_Snetterton]

You're presenting a problem that doesn't exist in my game. I don't have to worry about enforcing anything or making sure they don't color outside of the lines. The expectation is that they roleplay their stats, including a low intelligence. I leave the how of it up to them. As long as the player is making an effort, I don't care about the details.

There is no way players who take a more cerebral approach to the game of D&D can RP a low intelligence char. The amount of actors in a D&D game who can act as well as Penn or Malkovich (who played roles with mentally deficient chars) is few and far between. Now, those actors portrayed chars that were well below an 8 in D&D terms. But I never see the smarter players at a table backing off their RL intelligence when it comes to groups formulating plans inside a game.

And inside the group at my gaming cafe, the chars that try to play low Wis chars, typically Chaotic Neutral chars, who rush speak before thinking, or rushing into insane situations, the well-known term of "Chaotic Stupid" is used.

The only true measure for those stats are not with RP, but inside Ability Checks and Savings Throws, which opens up the entire can of worms where a char that might have horrible decision-making skills and considered low Wis might also be great with Animals, or any other number of combinations that don't make sense.

Bottom line, trying to RP any ability, especially the soft ones, is pretty much impossible except for the most skilled actors.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Bottom line, trying to RP any ability, especially the soft ones, is pretty much impossible except for the most skilled actors.

Damn. I must be lucky having been surrounded by world class thespians for most of my roleplaying career then.

 

[Maxperson]

There is no way players who take a more cerebral approach to the game of D&D can RP a low intelligence char.

Yes they can. It's actually fairly easy. It may not be entirely accurate, but they can roleplay it just the same. Just like I can roleplay a Tabaxi as a cat person, even though I'm not one.

But I never see the smarter players at a table backing off their RL intelligence when it comes to groups formulating plans inside a game.

I see my players do it when they have a low intelligence. Now, when the players are talking out of character during the week about what they want to do in the next game, the players will sometimes give a different opinion and/or use their intelligence, but in the game the character isn't roleplayed as a great strategist.

And inside the group at my gaming cafe, the chars that try to play low Wis chars, typically Chaotic Neutral chars, who rush speak before thinking, or rushing into insane situations, the well-known term of "Chaotic Stupid" is used.

Okay. Instances of some people getting it wrong is not proof that it can't be done. I've seen low intelligence, wisdom and charsima roleplayed well quite often.

The only true measure for those stats are not with RP, but inside Ability Checks and Savings Throws,

Absolutely false. That is not the only true measure. Those things are simply the mechanical measure.

which opens up the entire can of worms where a char that might have horrible decision-making skills and considered low Wis might also be great with Animals, or any other number of combinations that don't make sense.

If a PC has a gift with something, the player and I will have worked that out.

Bottom line, trying to RP any ability, especially the soft ones, is pretty much impossible except for the most skilled actors.

And that's false. None of those in my group are even decent actors. Hell, we're not actors at all, and yet we all roleplay these things just fine.

 

[Vince_Snetterton]

Damn. I must be lucky having been surrounded by world class thespians for most of my roleplaying career then.

Or your standards and mine are quite different.

 

[Maxperson]

Or your standards and mine are quite different.

Yep. It seems like you're looking for an Oscar performance. We're just looking for a good faith effort to roleplay the low intelligence.