How do you Dispel?

[ThatGuyThere]

Hello!

My players and I enjoy a high-powered, high-fantasy, spell-slingin' style of game. We engage in heavy roleplaying and fantastical combats, generally with high-point-buys and Gestalted characters. We've played from levels one to twenty-eight, and ironed out the kinks we've found for ourselves, and had a ton of fun doing it. We've overcome CoDzilla, the "uselessness" of high-level Rogues, and the dominance of high-level casters, in our own ways.

We've solved all the troubles, in ways that work for us... 'cept for one.

We find Dispel Magic - and the caster level checks it requires - the most tedious mechanic in the entire D&D system. The players - and their oppoenents (slash me) - often spend up to an hour (out of game) preparing their list of "buff" spells.

And then the first action of any reasonable opponent (or even worse, any reasonable opponent's intelligent minions) is a volley of Dispel Magic effects.

It's not uncommon for it to require 15-20 minutes to resolve the Dispel checks against one character. Times five characters in the party - plus any "goons" that are with them - and it's an immensely time-consuming affair. Plus, it's unfun - they see their "hard-earned" buffing spells slipping away, and are (essentially) forced to sit and watch as I roll dice.

I've wracked my brain trying to come up with an alternative, but the truth is, Dispel being level-plus-luck based is a solid mechanical choice; the trouble is how dang long it takes to resolve. I've though about it just automatically dispelling a certain number of effects - either a number per caster level (more likely, one per several caster levels), or a random number affected by caster level ("1d4 per 3 caster levels", or such) - but how would you decide what's affected and what's not? And wouldn't that simply encourage "overcasting" - stacking multiple version(s) of a spell-or-effect from several sources, ultimately leading to *more* Dispel Magics, not less? Of course, each one would resolve faster, I suppose...

So I was wondering if anyone had come up with an alternative version of the "targeted Dispel" effect, that perhaps was faster to resolve?

 

[hong]

I generally just don't use dispel.

 

[robberbaron]

I don't often use Dispel, either.

How about this (apologies if it coulds like complete carp - thinking while typing):
BBEG casts Dispel on buffed-up PC
BBEG makes a Caster level check against the highest level spell on the PC.
If it fails, that's it. Next!
If it succeeds, have the player roll a saving throw for all the other active spells. Maybe DC = BBEG level with a roll of d20 + level of spell.

Just a thought.

 

[ThatGuyThere]

I don't often use Dispel, either.

How about this (apologies if it coulds like complete carp - thinking while typing):
BBEG casts Dispel on buffed-up PC
BBEG makes a Caster level check against the highest level spell on the PC.
If it fails, that's it. Next!
If it succeeds, have the player roll a saving throw for all the other active spells. Maybe DC = BBEG level with a roll of d20 + level of spell.

Just a thought.

Hmmm... I like it, sorta. Mostly. I don't like the "all-or-nothing" element of it, though - if the save fails, all spells go "poof"? Ooch.

I did immediately think, "gets one spell for each point above the DC" - so if the PC has a CL 15th effect, making the DC 26, and the BBEG gets a 30, four spells go poof. But that raises the issue of simply piling on the effects, in the effort to keep some....

But the margin-of-success factor - meaning Dispelling is a single roll - makes it tempting...

Or maybe it's a Will save against the Dispel, with a penalty based on the number of active spells...

 

[Jeph]

Here's a way to reduce it to one roll per character based on the above.

For a targetted dispell...

1. The caster chooses the target, and one spell effect on the target.
2. The target makes a Will save. If they succeed, the effect is not dispelled.
3. If the Will save fails, the the chosen effect is dispelled.
4. For every point by which the save fails to beat the DC, one spell level of additional effects are dispelled. (For magical effects with no spell level, use half the caster level of the effect in place of spell level). More powerful effects are dispelled first. If multiple effects have the same level, the target of the dispel may choose which are dispelled first.

For an area dispell, simply follow the above procedure for every character caught in the area. However, the caster of the dispell may not choose a specific effect that is automatically dispelled if the Will save fails.

If you target a magic item, it makes its own Will save. Ongoing spell effects and objects affected by ongoing spell effects save as a caster with the minimum level and ability score required to cast the spell.

The 3rd level Dispell Magic works against spells of 4th level or magical effects of caster level 8 or lower. Greater Dispell Magic works against any non-epic spell or magical effect.

Example: You, a fire mage, are fighting a magical battle against a Fey Enchantress. You know that she has warded herself with a Protection from Energy (fire), and suspect that she has other magical defenses -- in fact, she's got a Telepathic Bond, a Greater Mage Armor, a Fly, a Cat's Grace, and a Protection from Good going.

You hit her with a Dispell Magic. You choose the Protection from Energy (fire) as the first to go. She makes her save, and fails by 5. The Protection from Energy vanishes, as do five more levels of spells.

The Telpathic Bond would be the first to go, but Dispell Magic can't touch 5th level effects, so it stays. Tied for the next most powerful are Greater Mage Armor and Fly; she chooses to lose the Greater Mage Armor. That leaves two more levels of spells, enough to wipe out her Cat's Grace.

 

[Destil]

I wouldn't really tie it to saves, as that's just exchanging one type of roll for another (and one of the strongpoints of abjuration is that you can't save against it).

How about targeted dispel removes the first 1d4 buffs on a target when you make your dispel check against the highest, end of story? 2 rolls (dispel check and the d4, roll 'em togeather even). Greater dispel could dispel 2d4.

 

[starwed]

Here's a bizarre idea using another, also complicated rule in the place of the dispelling rule. But I think it addresses your specific problems.

Treat it like a turning check, using the dispeller's CL in place of cleric level, and the appropriate casting stat instead of Cha. Count each spell as a creature with HD = to it's CL. Resolve the "turning" check exactly as normal, but replace "turned creature" with "dispelled spell."

Thus, each dispelling can only get rid of a certain number of "HD" of spells, and in practice can probably only get rid of one or two spells from a caster of equivalent level. And the initial roll (to deterimine the max CL spell you can effect) replaces all of the individual CL checks.

 

[Gerion of Mercadia]

At Low and Mid levels - dispelling does take quite some time. Of course - at a level where a Pc has access to it Disjunction goes a long way.

spell aka Mordenkainen's disjunction.

Bye bye magic dependent PC magic.

 

[Quartz]

Instead of having someone roll umpteen times, you simply give all the affected players cards with pre-printed random d20 numbers on them. Each player then knocks off numbers until a success is registered. This works for Disjunction too. Of course, if you want to keep things secret from the players, what you do is have them provide you with a list of buffs as they cast them - you already have a list of their items - and simply mark off numbers, one check per spell.

If you want to have the players roll, then just have them roll the once and add +1 for each check after the first.

And remember that what's good for the goose is also good for the gander.

 

[robberbaron]

By 'all the other spells' I meant one at a time not all together. Bad choice of words, sorry.

The problem with targeting specific spells is that, in general, you don't know what spells are running on an opponent. Sure, you might be able to see a Fire Shield, or he might be obviously Hasted or Enlarged but how could you know to target his Cat's Grace?

Maybe, have a successful Dispel target a max. number of spells (discuss), each player has a number of cards/scraps of paper with the spells currently running written on them and the DM/caster randomly selects the appropriate number of them. These are dispelled.

Personally, I wouldn't bother with changing anything because it so rarely comes up (few of my players' foes are spellchuckers and few of them would waste a perfectly good opportunity for a big boom spell to throw a Dispel at them).