doctorbadwolf
Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Thread is what it says on the tin.
Most takes on how to handle a fastball special that I've seen are too complicated, punish the attempt with two many rolls that can result in total failure of the move (often effectively triple or quadruple disadvantage), or restrict the manuever to the point where it'd be simpler to just say "no, you can't do that in this game".
What I'd like is a take wherein each participant makes exactly 1 check, and both have to fail for it to be a total failure, with the chance of a mixed success if half or more participants fail.
So, for a fastball special,
I'll get to action economy of joint maneuvers later in the post.
Conclusion:
Throw distance equal to the higher of the thrown creature's or the thrower's Strength Score in feet.
Half that number if you don't do anything to help the throw, if the thrown creature is unwilling, or if the creature being thrown is heavier than the weight the thrower can carrying without being encumbered. The thrown creature can help by moving at least 10 feet, ending in the thrower's space, before the throw, or by adopting a ball-like shape to make themselves a more easily handled package.
Add 5ft for every category by which the thrower is larger than the thrown creature, using the thrower's effective size for determining carrying capacity, if it is different from it's actual size. (ie, a Goliath adds 5ft when throwing another medium creature, or 10ft when throwing a gnome or halfling. A fellow Goliath might half the total distance they can be thrown, if their weight is greater than what the thrower can carry without encumberance)
A check to aim the throw and determine any bonus distance is made by the thrower, using Strength (Athletics). If it succeeds, the thrown creature is thrown into the space occupied by the target. DC is equal to the half the distance thrown in feet. A DM might decide that this is instead a ranged attack with a thrown weapon, if the thrower is sufficiently strong, and sufficiently larger than the thrown creature.
The thrown creature then makes an attack roll against the target. They can either gain advantage on that attack, or choose to deal 1d6 extra damage per ten feet they were thrown. They can instead choose to make a Shove attack, using either their Acrobatics or Athletics check.
I like that, but what about the action economy?
I figure the thrown creature uses their Action to take the Readied Action to make their attack, and part of their movement (5ft plus whatever they have to move to get adjacent to the thrower), and then uses a Reaction to make the attack when the thrower uses an action to throw them? Is that too restrictive/costly? I rarely see any Battle Master Fighters take Commander's Strike unless it's houseruled to be less costly in action economy terms, as a comparative example. Perhaps it's a bonus action to set up the throw?
Would you give a bonus to the throw check if the thrown creature is trained in Acrobatics? Handle the attack differently? Perhaps an opposed check, like grappling but with both parties choosing between Acrobatics and Athletics?
Has anyone determined an even simpler way of handling any and all joint manuevers?
In general, I think they should only ever require 1 check per participant, and should strongly feature the possibility of success with a setback or "price to pay" in pbta terms. Maybe treat it exactly as a group check, but with 1/2 exactly being mixed success?
Do any other joint maneuvers come up in your games? If you have a fairly simply system for adjudicating them, what is it?
Most takes on how to handle a fastball special that I've seen are too complicated, punish the attempt with two many rolls that can result in total failure of the move (often effectively triple or quadruple disadvantage), or restrict the manuever to the point where it'd be simpler to just say "no, you can't do that in this game".
What I'd like is a take wherein each participant makes exactly 1 check, and both have to fail for it to be a total failure, with the chance of a mixed success if half or more participants fail.
So, for a fastball special,
reasoning said:I'd probably set a distance at which no roll is required from the thrower, and a maximum distance you could get with a 20 on the die, that scales from the same base as the minimum distance, so there's just the one number to reference.
Probably, that would the thrower's carrying capacity, jump distance, or strength score. Something that is already a stat they can reference, based on strength.
For reference, a real life human threw a real life other human who weighed 130lbs about 17 1/2 feet. Scottish dudes throw 175lb cabers end over end. I'm fine with a 14-16 Strength character with Athletics trained doing the same with some practice. In fact, I'd only require Athletics for aiming the throw, bc 5e isn't extra with the complexity.
So, for a medium creature that is basically human sized, I'd use a number of feet equal to Strength Score as the base for throwing a willing creature. This is basically taking a ten, assuming you are performing a manuever to maximize the throw, like launching a running creature who springs from your cupped hands as you arch up from a squat and throw them, or doing a spin for momentum before launching them like a sack of potatoes. Half the distance if you don't have any such help, or if the creature is unwilling. (resolve the unwilling part as a grapple contest, obviously)
But I want to be able to roll to improve the throw, which is where skills come in. Either the thrower's Athletics or the thrown person's Acrobatics or Athletics can be used to increase the distance, up to a number of feet equal to half the total of the check? So, if you get a ten, you're adding 5ft?
I'll get to action economy of joint maneuvers later in the post.
But why even do it? What do you get out of it? said:Obviously, sometimes the main point is just to get to an enemy, get a character to a place they can't reach on their own, or just do a cool stunt. Here is what I propose, for those times where you want to do this to gain an advantage over an enemy. The two characters choose between the following benefits when they decide to do the thing.
The thrower is giving up an action to do this, and unlike the help action, it has a chance of failure, so I'm ok with Advantage or extra damage if they succeed.
- The attacker has advantage on the attack at the end of the manuever, if the throw succeeds in getting them to the spot.
- The target takes 1d6 for every 10 feet the attacker was thrown, halfish what you'd take from falling the same distance.
- The target is Shoved, in addition to the normal effect of the attack.
Conclusion:
Throw distance equal to the higher of the thrown creature's or the thrower's Strength Score in feet.
Half that number if you don't do anything to help the throw, if the thrown creature is unwilling, or if the creature being thrown is heavier than the weight the thrower can carrying without being encumbered. The thrown creature can help by moving at least 10 feet, ending in the thrower's space, before the throw, or by adopting a ball-like shape to make themselves a more easily handled package.
Add 5ft for every category by which the thrower is larger than the thrown creature, using the thrower's effective size for determining carrying capacity, if it is different from it's actual size. (ie, a Goliath adds 5ft when throwing another medium creature, or 10ft when throwing a gnome or halfling. A fellow Goliath might half the total distance they can be thrown, if their weight is greater than what the thrower can carry without encumberance)
A check to aim the throw and determine any bonus distance is made by the thrower, using Strength (Athletics). If it succeeds, the thrown creature is thrown into the space occupied by the target. DC is equal to the half the distance thrown in feet. A DM might decide that this is instead a ranged attack with a thrown weapon, if the thrower is sufficiently strong, and sufficiently larger than the thrown creature.
The thrown creature then makes an attack roll against the target. They can either gain advantage on that attack, or choose to deal 1d6 extra damage per ten feet they were thrown. They can instead choose to make a Shove attack, using either their Acrobatics or Athletics check.
I like that, but what about the action economy?
I figure the thrown creature uses their Action to take the Readied Action to make their attack, and part of their movement (5ft plus whatever they have to move to get adjacent to the thrower), and then uses a Reaction to make the attack when the thrower uses an action to throw them? Is that too restrictive/costly? I rarely see any Battle Master Fighters take Commander's Strike unless it's houseruled to be less costly in action economy terms, as a comparative example. Perhaps it's a bonus action to set up the throw?
Would you give a bonus to the throw check if the thrown creature is trained in Acrobatics? Handle the attack differently? Perhaps an opposed check, like grappling but with both parties choosing between Acrobatics and Athletics?
Has anyone determined an even simpler way of handling any and all joint manuevers?
In general, I think they should only ever require 1 check per participant, and should strongly feature the possibility of success with a setback or "price to pay" in pbta terms. Maybe treat it exactly as a group check, but with 1/2 exactly being mixed success?
Do any other joint maneuvers come up in your games? If you have a fairly simply system for adjudicating them, what is it?