D&D 5E (2024) How do you handle surprised but won initiative?

[Marc17]

This can get alittle muddy, though, from the perspective of who can see what when their initiative comes up. If the leopard has not leapt out until its turn, it is still hidden when the PCs go. What can they reasonably do, without using player knowledge, then?

I'd say the call for initiative comes with the declaration of attack. From there it just gets into how the DM wants to narrate it. Perhaps somebody saw it after it lept. Perhaps was getting prepared to leap but wasn't hidden enough. Perhaps it developed the death lust with the intent to attack and another felt that (popular in Lone Wolf and Cub manga).

Still, if the DM doesn't like it or players protest enough, just change it. My ongoing opinion is that the rules are purposely written sloppily to force the DM to take action on them. Why else would we have Hiding make you Invisible, which doesn't actually hinder detection just the targeting of spells on "Invisible" people.

 

[billd91]

This can get alittle muddy, though, from the perspective of who can see what when their initiative comes up. If the leopard has not leapt out until its turn, it is still hidden when the PCs go. What can they reasonably do, without using player knowledge, then?

We go with Charlaquin's interpretation way up thread about combat happening simultaneously. It's not that the leopard isn't going or hasn't revealed itself, it's that other people are reacting fast enough to have their actions adjudicated first.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Like I said, on reflection the 5e24 method is not a bad solution for "oh crap, orcs!"/"oh crap, adventurers!" But I wouldn't use it for an ambush scenario.

Honestly, the main thing that I do with a surprise, is that I roleplay my "monsters' (or NPCs, or whatever) in such a way that if they're really unprepared for an ambush, well, they tend to run around grabbing weapons and stuff on their turn, which winds up similar to the 5e14 thing, but with them actually acting on their turn, in stead of standing around, but effectively losing it to... having other things to do than returning the offensive. That doesn't usually go for an alert "guard"-type, but then, it probably shouldn't (and will often result in many of the ambushed diving for cover, but not always effectively.)

 

[Maxperson]

@mearls has a neat approach in his Moldvay project, where he's given the ranger the ability to grant their Stealth result to allies.

I thought it was an interesting idea to help avoid the scenario you're referring to, is why I bring it up.

More and more I'm becoming a fan of the group stealth checks that Mercer uses in Critical Roll.