D&D 5E (2024) How do you handle surprised but won initiative?

[Marc17]

This can get alittle muddy, though, from the perspective of who can see what when their initiative comes up. If the leopard has not leapt out until its turn, it is still hidden when the PCs go. What can they reasonably do, without using player knowledge, then?

I'd say the call for initiative comes with the declaration of attack. From there it just gets into how the DM wants to narrate it. Perhaps somebody saw it after it lept. Perhaps was getting prepared to leap but wasn't hidden enough. Perhaps it developed the death lust with the intent to attack and another felt that (popular in Lone Wolf and Cub manga*).

Still, if the DM doesn't like it or players protest enough, just change it. My ongoing opinion is that the rules are purposely written sloppily to force the DM to take action on them. Why else would we have Hiding make you Invisible, which doesn't actually hinder detection just the targeting of spells on "Invisible" people.

ETA: *sakki, that's the word I was trying to remember:
"sakki - The palpable desire to kill, directed at another person. Sometimes called blood lust. Based on the concept of ki, or energy, found in spiritual practices and Japanese martial arts like Aikido. These body energies can be felt beyond the physical self by the trained and self-aware."

 

[billd91]

This can get alittle muddy, though, from the perspective of who can see what when their initiative comes up. If the leopard has not leapt out until its turn, it is still hidden when the PCs go. What can they reasonably do, without using player knowledge, then?

We go with Charlaquin's interpretation way up thread about combat happening simultaneously. It's not that the leopard isn't going or hasn't revealed itself, it's that other people are reacting fast enough to have their actions adjudicated first.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Like I said, on reflection the 5e24 method is not a bad solution for "oh crap, orcs!"/"oh crap, adventurers!" But I wouldn't use it for an ambush scenario.

Honestly, the main thing that I do with a surprise, is that I roleplay my "monsters' (or NPCs, or whatever) in such a way that if they're really unprepared for an ambush, well, they tend to run around grabbing weapons and stuff on their turn, which winds up similar to the 5e14 thing, but with them actually acting on their turn, in stead of standing around, but effectively losing it to... having other things to do than returning the offensive. That doesn't usually go for an alert "guard"-type, but then, it probably shouldn't (and will often result in many of the ambushed diving for cover, but not always effectively.)

 

[Maxperson]

@mearls has a neat approach in his Moldvay project, where he's given the ranger the ability to grant their Stealth result to allies.

I thought it was an interesting idea to help avoid the scenario you're referring to, is why I bring it up.

More and more I'm becoming a fan of the group stealth checks that Mercer uses in Critical Roll.

 

[Horwath]

I like 2024 rules better for surprise than 5E or 3E, but they do give a lot to defender in an ambush.

So I modified it to:;

If you are surprised your initiative is as if your rolled "1" on initiative roll. Or 5 if you have advantage on initiative from some effect.
It still prevents double turn if you roll badly, but mostly ensures that ambusher will act before defender.

Gloomstalker/Assassin with alert feat could still act before ambusher in many situations.

 

[Marc17]

Another option would be to not just give the defender Disadvantage, but also the attacker Advantage. If they lose at that point, then it safe to say that the entire plan has gone off FUBAR from the start.

 

[Maxperson]

I have to admit the abstraction gets really, really strained on this one. Past the breaking point for me. By a certain level that means that your fighter has enough time to casually draw a bow, fire off three shots, walk 30', draw a sword, and hit three other things with it (and that's not even trying to push the limits). That really doesn't line up with the fiction of "had fast enough reflexes to land a counter-attack or get out the way in the nick of time".

The underlying problem is inflation of what can be accomplished in a round. The "abstraction" says it's supposed to be just a couple seconds, but D&D has constantly added more little things players can do. A new bonus action here, a new reaction there. The more things that can be accomplished before the next player gets a turn, the more it strains the limits of "simultaneity" in fiction. A surprise situation is basically the weakest link where it breaks first.

My personal solution when DMing is to simply allow the event that causes the surprise to resolve before I start initiative at all. A sniper shot, a secret spell being cast, a distraction being played out. Just have it happen outside of standard combat, then call for initiative afterwards. Technically, not exactly in line with the rules. Practically, much easier to sort out. As a house rule, it takes longer to explain and discuss with new players than it does to just play through, which I have mixed feelings about.

And it's not even just that. I can have a non-surprised PC walk 10 feet into a room and see 10 orcs who are 60 feet in. Initiative is rolled and the orcs win. All 10 of them can move and dash past the PC and cut him off from being able to get 10 feet back to the door.

In a simultaneous round that would be pretty much impossible. The PC would see the orcs start to move towards him and would turn and get the hell out of dodge. Depending on speeds and reaction time he might get out with some of the orcs right on his rear, but he'd make it out. On the one hand D&D rounds are supposed to be simultaneous, but on the other hand with situations similar to the above being fairly common, D&D rounds cannot be simultaneous.

The best solution in my opinion is to hold your nose and just not try to make sense of it.

 

[aco175]

Add in the Alert feat to the conversation and how does on swap their initiative with another PC. My PC is not surprised, but the fighter is so I'll swap my initiative and he is now going first and I'm once again surprised, although I'm constantly on alert for danger. I'll just say that my PC tripped and pushed the fighter into the front- you know somehow.

 

[Voadam]

When the leopard jumps from the tree on the mage, why is the rest of the party even involved at all? Either they should have seen the leopard in the tree, completely negating the surprise, or they shouldn't know anything is even happening until the leopard has pounced.

The rest of the party is involved because the whole party is close enough together for the scene

The leopard beat the best passive perception in the party, he is hidden from them all.

Initiative determines the order of combat and the party is surprised by combat starting. They all roll initiative with disadvantage.

That all seems clear RAW for 5e 24.

The big question is what happens for anybody who beat the leopard's initiative when their first turn comes up. I now see three main options.

1 They do not know anything is going on so they take no actions on their turn in the round. Initiative just determines order and as a DM I go to then skip everyone with a better roll and just start at the leopard's initiative then go from there. Narratively they did not notice the leopard until it does something. Getting a good roll might actually mean going after someone who gets a worse roll.

2 They sense something is up but do not know about the leopard specifically. They might dodge or whatever. I start with the highest initiative person and say what do you do? giving no indication about the leopard until it goes. Narratively they notice something on some level. Game level at the table they get some advantage from rolling high and there could be some neat tension from what do we do and the uncertainty of what is coming but knowing something is coming imminently.

3 They are in combat and won initiative, I lay down the combat mat and if they ask about the mini for the leopard I say it is the leopard they did not spot. If they attack the hidden leopard and I as DM think of it they get disadvantage on any such attack rolls because successfully hidden means invisible condition which imposes disadvantage on attacks against the invisible target RAW. Narratively they notice something specifically about the leopard, though it is still mechanically hidden.

 

[SkidAce]

I mean there are a couple of options under the rules for this scenario.

1. They can take a dodge action to represent them going on high alert
2. They can ready an action for when whatever threat presents itself
3. They can delay their initiative until something they can react too happens.

The most sensible choice is option 2 because they keep their place in the initiative order.

I do like how WFRP 4e handles it though. The inciting incident happens out of sequence and then when you get down to that players go they miss their action. It’s a bit like the opposite of a Ready action. You pay it back when your turn comes round, instead of paying it forward.

We normally do the out of sequence, sucked for the party when the "ninja" also won initiative.