D&D 5E (2024) How do you handle surprised but won initiative?

[saviirkad]

The rule isn’t bad, it’s just accomplishing a different objective.

I wouldn't even say that. It's taking a different approach to accomplishing the same objective.

Combat in 5e is initiated by some act that actually occurs within the initiative order. Those who are surprised will likely act later than those who are not surprised, either waiting for round 2 or rolling with disadvantage.

The 2014 mechanic wasn't comparatively that complex or hard but was nevertheless frequently misunderstood or confused. Sometimes a rule is fine but just doesn't click with the audience, is my take. 2024 tries a different tact, which I haven't really seen interacted with enough both personally and in online conversations to know if it's missed the mark or not.

 

[Deset Gled]

Turns in combat are an abstraction for ease of resolution, but within the fiction, all participants’ actions within a round are happening simultaneously, or very near to it. So, a surprised creature getting to take its turn before the attacker just means that the surprised creature saw or heard the attacker coming at them just before the hit landed, but had fast enough reflexes to land a counter-attack or get out of the way in the nick of time.

Alternatively, just keep using the 5.0 surprise rules (or the 3.X “surprise round” rules that most people incorrectly applied to 5.0)

I have to admit the abstraction gets really, really strained on this one. Past the breaking point for me. By a certain level that means that your fighter has enough time to casually draw a bow, fire off three shots, walk 30', draw a sword, and hit three other things with it (and that's not even trying to push the limits). That really doesn't line up with the fiction of "had fast enough reflexes to land a counter-attack or get out the way in the nick of time".

The underlying problem is inflation of what can be accomplished in a round. The "abstraction" says it's supposed to be just a couple seconds, but D&D has constantly added more little things players can do. A new bonus action here, a new reaction there. The more things that can be accomplished before the next player gets a turn, the more it strains the limits of "simultaneity" in fiction. A surprise situation is basically the weakest link where it breaks first.

My personal solution when DMing is to simply allow the event that causes the surprise to resolve before I start initiative at all. A sniper shot, a secret spell being cast, a distraction being played out. Just have it happen outside of standard combat, then call for initiative afterwards. Technically, not exactly in line with the rules. Practically, much easier to sort out. As a house rule, it takes longer to explain and discuss with new players than it does to just play through, which I have mixed feelings about.

 

[Lanefan]

Why do you dismiss what people write so casually as nonsense? That’s a pretty accurate statement of the way 2024 breaks down, and a number of people had a problem with 5e’s surprise rules because it could result in an entire combat being trivialized as well as people constantly referring to it as a “surprise round.”

The whole point of surprising your opponent is to, as far as possible, trivialize the combat. Why is this a problem?

And yes, it should be a "surprise round", or at least a "surprise [something]", extra to initiative, where the attacker gets to not only act first but the defender doesn't yet have all their active defenses - shield, dodging, etc. - going.

After that, things proceed normally, with the attacker rolling initiative as normal. And very intentionally this means that by the end of the first round the attacker has acted twice.

Having one entire side rolling initiative at disadvantage can still have an impact without it tipping the scale too far.

The point of surprise is to, ideally, tip the scale enough that it falls over. Othewise, why bother?

 

[touc]

D&D 2024 tried to correct an "unfun" rule wherein one side could be severely damaged or wiped out without having touched a die. While perhaps realistic, it wasn't fun being on the receiving end. Even so, it does stretch the imagination when, every single time, this occurs if you follow the rules to a literal fault:

Setup #1: 1 mile away, the invisible archmage looks out the window of one of the many houses in town at the mercenaries who ruined his plans and prepares to cast meteor swarm (range 1 mile).

DM: (to the party that is haggling at the market). Something seems amiss. Roll for initiative.

This begs whether a Stealth check should be compared to Perception if the party has its back to the caster, who is invisible and a mile away behind a window of one of thousands of windows. Anyhoo, the party wins initiative, surprised or not. They leap to action, taking cover, casting defensive spells, and summoning monstrous allies. The merchants scatter. They've seen this 6th sense crazy stuff before. The archmage, realizing the party has somehow, some way, sensed his invisible presence is a threat from over a mile away, aborts his attack. The DM announces the battle is over.

Setup #2: the enemy scout is soundly sleeping. The party has been watching him for an hour, making sure he's in deep sleep before their rogue, "Syl the Silent," legendary purloiner of the Gem of Ardun, moves in for the kill. The Stealth check is DC 30, impossible we say. The scout will never see it coming.

DM: (who wouldn't allow an enemy to coup de grace a sleeping character without an initiative roll). Something seems amiss in the guard's dreams. Roll for initiative.

The party has terrible rolls. The guard, despite never hearing the impossibly stealthy thief and in a deep sleep, improbably wakes up at a time they otherwise would have slept through the night. The scout sounds the alarm, and the entire enemy camp is awoken.

The same goes for loaded crossbows pointed straight at an unarmed character, and so on. It can seem sometimes that extreme preparation or impossible-to-detect threats (like a guy a mile away when you're shopping in town) should be treated differently. Otherwise, what's the point?

My ultimate point is that all D&D rules, no matter what edition, aren't meant to be inflexible when application of the rule won't make any sense, and you should do what makes the most sense and fun for your group.

 

[saviirkad]

I am not sure i have ever followed the exact rules in any edition. It is just one of those things I think the fiction itself determines what happens and how. If the ninja is in position and everyone fails to perceive said ninja, it makes no sense for anything to happen before the ninja strikes. If the bandit archers successfully hid in the treeline, they get things going when they loose arrows. Same for the PCs.

Not that barring simultaneous, coordinated missile fire, I tend to only give a single actor that inciting action "for free."

Yeah, and that's fine when you've all settled in a preferred way to handle that relationship between mechanics and the fiction.

It's basically like allowing for a description of the attack made before the dice is rolled to decide that roll, to choose the fiction of the description to supersede the game mechanics.

I think while the comparison example is often frowned upon, in the narrower context of an ambush it's actually more of a norm.

 

[Voadam]

Fair enough. I have been running when to roll initiative like that since 2E.

And I have been DMing and playing 1e-5e 14 but the 5e 24 surprise rules are new and different and I am trying to wrap my head around how they work RAW and the implications of them.

I thought my initial two methods in the OP were both reasonable to read it and run it, I did not think people would be taking it as narratively imposing actions negating successful stealth.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Back to the OP (original premise in this case):

I find the narrative dissonance of, say, getting shot, and then standing around while someone jumps out of cover, runs across a field, and stabs me for a second attack, having gone twice, to be more difficult to handle than the idea that the ambusher popped up and I hair-trigger shoot them before they get their shot off. (If you'll forgive me for the run-on sentence). The newer way is not only easier (to me) to handle, but it also (IME) occurs less often. It's not easy to beat an ambusher with an initiative roll when you have disadvantage. I can happen, but it's not all that common.

 

[Reynard]

@mearls has a neat approach in his Moldvay project, where he's given the ranger the ability to grant their Stealth result to allies.

I thought it was an interesting idea to help avoid the scenario you're referring to, is why I bring it up.

I mean sure. You can do group stealth checks, too, which can mitigate the clankies. But then, why What's the point?

I don't mean that dismissively. I think it is worth thinking about what we are doing and what we are trying to achieve and how the system we choose, 2014 or 2024 or whatever, satisfies that.

One aspect I guess is worth differentiating is "surprise" versus "ambush." Checking for suprise in a sort of old school way makes sense when you run into that random encounter. 5E 2024 works for me there: who was unaware? Roll initiative at disadvantage,

Ambushes are a different thing and sort of break rules of combat happening only in combat rounds. An ambush is a readied action but you need a reaction to do it, and you don't have reactions (as far as we can tell) until initiative is rolled. That's why I feel like the fiction has to rule around the ambush -- it is inherently in a nebulous space between 2 game modes (exploration and combat).

 

[Reynard]

Combat in 5e is initiated by some act that actually occurs within the initiative order.

This is a paradox, and therefore cannot be true.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

This is a paradox, and therefore cannot be true.

Since when must paradoxes not be true?

I mean sure. You can do group stealth checks, too, which can mitigate the clankies. But then, why What's the point?

I'm not sure what you mean. Would not the point be: So that the Ranger (in that example) can say, "You hide over here" and use their abilities to coordinate with the party to actually achieve an ambush, in stead of the clanky paladin always giving them away.

I think that's probably better than a group stealth check (though ultimately it amounts to the same thing) because the Ranger player gets to actively feel like they've done the job, rather than "Everyone roll DEX Stealth!" (Set of 15, 19, 7, 4) - discount the last two and call it a success. Obviously, a group check can be narrated better than that, but I've certainly seen it done that way. I suppose that the Ranger player could say, "I give you a 15!" Which would be just as narratively weak, but at least they are granting the result, so it's not much more of a stretch to say, "I tell you to hide here and keep your mouth shut (and don't move your clanky armor!) - Have a 15!"