How do you handle DC 0 Epic Spells?

[DanMcS]

Per the ELH it takes 1 day per 50,000gp in resources (rounded up). So it takes a minimum of 1 day to research a new Epic level spell regardless of its DC.

A 0gp spell, with a research time of 1 day/50k gp, rounded up, is still 0 days.

You can know up to 1 spell per 10 ranks of Knowledge (religion) or (arcana).

I thought that was the limit you could cast per day; the number you can know is theoretically unbounded, just like the number a wizard can have in his spellbooks. In practicallity, it's limited by reseach time and cost.

While Dan provides a good argument, I think that no epic spell should have a DC below 30 - otherwise it's considered a 0-9 level spell. In any case, even 0-level spells have to be researched (which requires time and gold) - even a powerful caster shouldn't be able to just whip off the equivalent of a 10th-level spell off the top of his head.

Yeah, see, I would agree with you, but I want to err on the side of providing capabilities for the PCs. This isn't going to be a gamebreaking thing; they still have to research the spell seeds at epic level costs, before they can use them to create DC 0 spells. The drawbacks required to get a spell DC down to 0 are not at all insignificant; you pay in either casting time (which makes it impossible to cast the spell in combat), XP cost (XP is the most valuable resource spellcasters have), or in backlash, damage that hits the caster. I like that a caster can pour his soul into a surge of power like this, it feels very epic to me.

And also, the DC 0 epic spells that have been cast in Sepulchrave's game are so damn cool, because they make the plot go. It's a tactical nuke in the hands of the players; they can drop it, but it will cost them. The cool factor outweighs the drawbacks, in my opinion.

 

[Gez]

You can know up to 1 spell per 10 ranks of Knowledge (religion) or (arcana).

Or Knowledge (nature) for druids, or Knowledge (psionics) for psions.

And it's spell slots per day, not spells known.

 

[andargor]

I thought that was the limit you could cast per day; the number you can know is theoretically unbounded, just like the number a wizard can have in his spellbooks. In practicallity, it's limited by reseach time and cost.

And it's spell slots per day, not spells known.

Yes, that's correct.

A spellcaster who can cast epic spells has a number of open epic spell slots per day equal to one-tenth his or her ranks in the Knowledge skill appropriate to the spell and the caster's class.

Dan, what did you mean by this? :

This isn't going to be a gamebreaking thing; they still have to research the spell seeds at epic level costs, before they can use them to create DC 0 spells.

I don't think that seeds have to be researched independently

An epic spell is developed from smaller pieces called seeds and connecting pieces called factors. Every epic seed has a base Spellcraft DC, and every factor has a Spell-craft DC adjustment. When a desired spell is developed, the spellcaster spends resources and time to assemble the pieces that make up the epic spell. The base Spellcraft DCs of each seed are added together; then the DC adjustments of the factors are added to that total. The sum equals the final Spellcraft DC for the epic spell.

So, in essence, a caster could create a DC 0 spell on the fly with any seed. Unless I'm missing something.

IMHO, that's not a big problem, since this can only be done a very limited number of times per day. By the time a character can cast 4 DC 0 spells in a day, she's 37th level...

Andargor

 

[andargor]

Oh, and I forgot. I posted some variant Epic Spellcasting rules in House Rules in this thread.

Andargor

 

[DanMcS]

Dan, what did you mean by this? :
I don't think that seeds have to be researched independently
So, in essence, a caster could create a DC 0 spell on the fly with any seed. Unless I'm missing something.

Yes, you're right, I completely made that part up. Not out of thin air, but from a set of house type rules I made a while ago. Right.

 

[Suldulin]

I like how Sep handles it, iirc he has DC 0 level spells be spontanous, and another be researched, but there's no epic level spells inbetween DC 0 and 10(iirc, might be 20)

Course he describes it better if someone can find the actual quote

 

[Hypersmurf]

So, in essence, a caster could create a DC 0 spell on the fly with any seed.

Of course, a wizard would then need to take the time to prepare it.

A sorcerer could immediately cast it.

A cleric would need to prepare it... unless he gave it a name with 'cure' in the title, in which case he might be able to convince his DM he can cast it spontaneously...

-Hyp.

 

[rushlight]

Sorry, my players aren't allowed control of the Epic spell creation rules. That's not to say they can't create or use Epic spells, though. For my players, there is a simple procedure. They describe the spell to me (with in-game terms, not mechanics!) and I create the spell with the rules. After a small amount of gold and time (usually about 5-10% of the final spell's cost) the player can approve or veto the final spell, and make adjustments.

Example: "I'd like a spell that is twice as powerful as Meteor Swarm, but affects a smaller area. It should cause acid damage, and be difficult to avoid. It's a combat spell, so it should be cast as fast as a regular spell." Then I'd apply the rules and make it fit his description. If it comes back too costly or whatever, he might say, "well, I'd like to be able to infuse some of my own lifeforce to reduce the magical power required..." and I'd add an XP component or whatnot. If the player described a spell that should be free to develop and cast, I'd just laugh and tell him it's not possible.

 

[Vrecknidj]

From the SRD: "Approval: This is the final step, and it’s critically important. The epic spell development work and reasoning must be shown to the GM and receive his or her approval. If the GM doesn’t approve, then the epic spell cannot be developed. However, the GM should explain why the epic spell wasn’t approved and possibly offer suggestions on how to create an epic spell that will be acceptable."

And, I suppose this is just what's being debated. However, I'd argue that in the development phase, that the minimum cost is always 1gp and so the minimum number of days to research is 1 day. I'd do this because it seems to be the only way to stay within the spirit of the law, which says that all epic spells require research to creature, and that research is costly.

Dave