How do you handle Rogue (Assassins)?

[pogre]

Howdy!

So Rogue (Assassin) is a popular choice in my campaigns and it creates some issues from time to time.

Assassins get an automatic critical when they surprise an opponent. This almost requires the rogue to move ahead of the party and operate independently to gain that surprise attack. I fully realize this is a classical trope for the rogue role.

But here's the rub, when a rogue moves independently of the rest of the party it can create this kind of mini-game while the rest of the PCs twiddle their thumbs and wait for it to resolve. It's classic, but IME a bit boring for everyone else. It also results in a fair number of dead rogues, which I have no problem with...

I am thinking about being more generous with surprise conditions. I am struggling a bit with how to do this. Do you give a surprise condition anytime a rogue emerges successfully from Hiding to make an attack?

I don't want to rob the rogue (assassin) of his/her shtick, but I also would like to keep everyone involved. How do you handle it?

 

[Warmaster Horus]

Let the assassin player know that this is an issue. The rest of the group do not have to accommodate just one player's style as they're there to have fun, too. That said, there's not much you can do about the Assassinate ability if they successfully surprise opponents. Play it out as it should go, if they earned it by gaining the opportunity. Of course, a rapid counter-attack by previously unspotted or out of view opponents can impress on the assassin the reason they travel in a party.

 

[pogre]

Let the assassin player know that this is an issue. The rest of the group do not have to accommodate just one player's style as they're there to have fun, too. That said, there's not much you can do about the Assassinate ability if they successfully surprise opponents. Play it out as it should go, if they earned it by gaining the opportunity. Of course, a rapid counter-attack by previously unspotted or out of view opponents can impress on the assassin the reason they travel in a party.

To clarify, I am not trying to nerf the Assassinate ability. I actually would like to be more generous with the surprise condition to encourage the rogue to stay with the group. I'm looking for more of a carrot solution.

I often have done what you have suggested in the second part of your post - thus my comment about many dead rogues

 

[iserith]

First, I would examine why rogue (assassin) is a popular choice. Is there anything I'm doing to make this more popular than other rogue sub-classes? Is this an actual problem that I should fix and how?

Another consideration: Moving stealthily requires a slow pace. This means whatever the PCs are doing takes longer. In my games, this means you're more likely to run afoul of wandering monsters and it means a greater chance of failing to complete time-sensitive quests. Having some fair trade-offs for the benefit of moving stealthily and gaining surprise more often than not would be both in line with the rules and create some meaningful decisions.

Next, it might be worth calculating how much damage the assassin puts out by engaging in this tactic versus the party just busting down the door and attacking and occasionally getting surprise. I'm not a math guy, but if it works out that this assassin-scouting-ahead tactic doesn't have much of a payoff relative to the amount of idle time the rest of the players are experiencing, that should be made apparent to the players.

Finally, but not necessarily as the last resort, I would suggest that if the players are a bit bored with the assassin pulling this tactic, they just talk to the assassin's player and compromise on how often it's employed. They might also start working on ways to make the rest of the party stealthier so they can join the assassin in this tactic.

 

[jaelis]

I houseruled that assassins can pick two martial weapons, they gain proficiency and can use those weapons for sneak attack. That gives them something interesting to do in normal combats. They typically get to use the assassinate ability when it comes up more naturally, like the whole party arranges an ambush or the rogue just starts things off. That doesn't work out to be especially often, but it seems ok.

 

[pogre]

First, I would examine why rogue (assassin) is a popular choice. Is there anything I'm doing to make this more popular than other rogue sub-classes? Is this an actual problem that I should fix and how?

My campaigns have a ton of combat. It's what I think D&D does well and it matches my players expectations for the game too. We sprinkle in some other elements, but killing monsters is a big part of our D&D games.

Next, it might be worth calculating how much damage the assassin puts out by engaging in this tactic versus the party just busting down the door and attacking and occasionally getting surprise. I'm not a math guy, but if it works out that this assassin-scouting-ahead tactic doesn't have much of a payoff relative to the amount of idle time the rest of the players are experiencing, that should be made apparent to the players.

Totally agree. I have made that point to the players many times. I was just contemplating how to make the surprise happen a little more often.

I may be on a fool's errand - just exploring if anyone has dealt with this issue.

 

[Hriston]

I use a variable audible distance for quiet noise of around 35 feet (the players know what this distance is when it matters), which means if the party is visually obstructed and beyond that distance, as long as they're being stealthy (aka trying to stay quiet), it doesn't matter what their DEX (Stealth) checks are. They won't be noticed, barring some unusual form of detection. This usually makes it pretty easy for the rogue to sneak in to get within melee range while the rest of the party is close by, or for the entire party to launch an attack from hiding, gaining surprise that way.

 

[iserith]

My campaigns have a ton of combat. It's what I think D&D does well and it matches my players expectations for the game too. We sprinkle in some other elements, but killing monsters is a big part of our D&D games.

My games have a ton of combat, too. I almost never see an assassin though. This could be for any reason, but I wonder if there's something else going on. Maybe, maybe not.

Totally agree. I have made that point to the players many times. I was just contemplating how to make the surprise happen a little more often.

I may be on a fool's errand - just exploring if anyone has dealt with this issue.

Have you done this math before out of curiosity? Or has anyone? That would be interesting to see. I just lack the skills to figure it out.

Some people do group Stealth checks to determine surprise. I guess you would just set the DC to the highest monster passive Perception + 1 to resolve. That would seem to mean that all the monsters are surprised or none of them are, leaving out the possibility that some are and some aren't. In my view, it makes surprising enemies fairly easy to the point of making it the party's go-to tactic in all situations, so some time-based trade-offs like I mentioned above would be good. Surprise is pretty awesome. The default rules make it great, but not easy to achieve unless the party plans for it. That feels about right to me.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

To clarify, I am not trying to nerf the Assassinate ability. I actually would like to be more generous with the surprise condition to encourage the rogue to stay with the group. I'm looking for more of a carrot solution.

I often have done what you have suggested in the second part of your post - thus my comment about many dead rogues

I'd be cautious about making surprise an easier-to-achieve situation in your game. As you know, it confers a lot of advantage to the ones surprising.

I only provide the Rogue with Advantage in situations where they emerge from Hiding to attack once battle is joined (except for Surprise and other special conditions). Even then it's only for the first attack, if they have multiples and if they break concealment traveling to the point of attack then Hiding is broken as is Advantage on the attack. Providing an Assassin with Surprise every time they emerge from Hiding (with say, a bow) means they get a free Crit on practically every turn. That's broken.

 

[FrogReaver]

suprise rounds are very strong and even more so for an assassain rogue.

If I wanted a house rule I would give rogue auto crit if he beat all enemies initiative. I would do away with granting it on the surprise round unless he also beat enemies initiative there.