How do you handle Rogue (Assassins)?

[Yunru]

No it doesn't. It requires the person BE a threat and be noticed.

I've said in the past, the spirit of the rule appears to be that you see something dangerous at least half a second before it hits you. If so, you aren't surprised as there's time to dodge out of the way.

If you are talking to someone and they suddenly pull out a weapon, you have the time required to pull out the weapon, get into a fighting stance, close the distance to you and attack in order to react. You aren't surprised. Even if they have the weapon in their hand, you still have the time required to get into a fighting stance and swing the weapon.

From my view of the rules, this is the difference between surprised and not surprised:

Surprised - I'm walking through the market buying apples. Suddenly there is a pain in my side. I look down and there is a crossbow bolt sticking out of me. I look up and I see a guy in a cloak hiding behind a nearby stall holding a crossbow and pointing it at me.

Not Surprised - I'm walking through the market buying apples when I notice someone hiding behind a stall pointing a crossbow at me, his finger on the trigger ready to fire. I still have half a second to react. If I react quick enough I can still get over to him and attack before he presses the trigger. Now we determine who reacts faster by rolling initiative.

The key is that if you are able to see the person when he starts the attack, you have time to react to it before it finishes. Which is why, in some rare circumstances, I will allow people who have already been seen get surprise against someone by leaving their sight before attacking.

For instance: I'm have having a negotiation with 2 diplomats, we are discussing trade agreements between our two countries. One of them gets up and says he is going to get more tea. I believe him. Then the other one starts telling me what terms they would like in the trade deal and I'm so distracted, I forget to look behind me. I feel the dagger buried in my back without even realizing that the other one snuck up on me.

But I adjudicate this situation the same way I do all other Surprise situations. The person sneaking up needs to make a Stealth check vs PP and they need to be unseen to start hiding. But, as per the rules, the DM can determine that a creature is so distracted by something that you can sneak up on them even without cover to hide behind.

However, it should be noted that even in this situation, Surprise is still determined the same way: Stealth vs PP and if the target is unaware of any threat then they are surprised.

If the situation was instead that the two diplomats, in the middle of negotiations started casting spells or pulled out weapons and attack, that isn't surprise. I see you pull out weapons or start casting a spell and I have the ability to react before you finish.

Nonesense. To rule such a way makes a complete shame of Initiative.
That's what Initiative's for: Determining whether X has time to act before Y.

If no-one has weapons drawn at combat start, they have to wait for their turn to draw said weapon.

Additionally, even if someone is a threat, and is noticed, if they're not identified as a threat, then a threat has not been noticed. You determine surprise from the perspective of the creature being surprised.

 

[Fast_Jimmy]

Did... did you miss the part where you get advantage on outspeed enemies regardless of surprise?

Advantage on one attack once a combat MAYBE depending on your Initiative is a pretty paltry consolation prize.

Why not compare it with the Arcane Trickster, who at Level 13 can use Mage Hand as a Bonus Action to get Advantage every turn, without fail? That sounds a HECK of a lot more useful than anything Assassin gives you, ever. And its just icing on the cake for what the Arcane Trickster brings to the table.

 

[Fast_Jimmy]

Nonesense. To rule such a way makes a complete shame of Initiative.
That's what Initiative's for: Determining whether X has time to act before Y.

If no-one has weapons drawn at combat start, they have to wait for their turn to draw said weapon.

Additionally, even if someone is a threat, and is noticed, if they're not identified as a threat, then a threat has not been noticed. You determine surprise from the perspective of the creature being surprised.

Yeah, no. I'm quoting this twice in the same thread now.

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-november-2015

Does surprise happen outside the initiative order as a special surprise round? No, here’s how surprise works.

The first step of any combat is this: the DM determines whether anyone in the combat is surprised (reread “Combat Step by Step” on page 189 of the Player’s Handbook). This determination happens only once during a fight and only at the beginning. In other words, once a fight starts, you can’t be surprised again, although a hidden foe can still gain the normal benefits from being unseen (see “Unseen Attackers and Targets” on page 194 of the Player’s Handbook).

To be surprised, you must be caught off guard, usually because you failed to notice foes being stealthy or you were startled by an enemy with a special ability, such as the gelatinous cube’s Transparent trait, that makes it exceptionally surprising. You can be surprised even if your companions aren’t, and you aren’t surprised if even one of your foes fails to catch you unawares.

If anyone is surprised, no actions are taken yet. First, initiative is rolled as normal. Then, the first round of combat starts, and the unsurprised combatants act in initiative order. A surprised creature can’t move or take an action or a reaction until its first first turn ends (remember that being unable to take an action also means you can’t take a bonus action). In effect, a surprised creature skips its first turn in a fight. Once that turn ends, the creature is no longer surprised.

In short, activity in a combat is always ordered by initiative, whether or not someone is surprised, and after the first found of combat has passed, surprise is no longer a factor. You can still try to hide from your foes and gain the benefits conferred by being hidden, but you don’t deprive your foes of their turns when you do so.

What you're describing may be how you run things at your table, which is fine... but its not how the rules work.

If you follow the game as prescribed, Surprise is incredibly tricky and difficult to pull off, even by a completely hidden character who is incredibly Stealthy and blessed with Initiative. A Rogue with Skulker (to hide the most easily), Sharpshooter (to be as far away as possible) and Alert (to get +5 to Initiative) can snipe someone from complete darkness and, if they flub their Initiative roll, will not be Surprising their target. That's RAW.

Is that ideal? I'd say probably not... but that's the rules. So when people say Assassinate is a terrible ability that needs to be fixed, they can only really say that with the existing rules. Otherwise, this entire discussion doesn't stay "how do you all handle Assassins" and, instead, becomes, "how do you all homebrew Surprise?"

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Nonesense. To rule such a way makes a complete shame of Initiative.
That's what Initiative's for: Determining whether X has time to act before Y.

I'm confused. That's exactly what I said it was for. If two people can see each other and one tries to attack the other, you determine who acts first with initiative.

If you can't see the other person attack, then they surprise you since you don't see a threat coming at you and therefore don't even try to

If no-one has weapons drawn at combat start, they have to wait for their turn to draw said weapon.

Combat doesn't traditionally start until one side makes it clear that they are a threat (or something that can be perceived as a threat). People can draw their weapons all they want, they can even run circles around the enemies holding their weapons without any initiative being rolled as long as the other side doesn't perceive that as threatening, but as soon as a player says "I attack", I will roll for initiative to see if the enemy attacks them first.

The key factor is that if they pull out weapons, it is likely the enemy will attack THEM, so as soon as one of the NPCs, decides "I'm going to attack this guy, he just pulled out weapons", I declare initiative.

This process normally goes:

Player: "While we are sitting around discussing trade agreements, I reach into my boot and pull out my dagger."

DM: "Alright, the person across from you sees you pull a dagger. Roll for initiative."

Additionally, even if someone is a threat, and is noticed, if they're not identified as a threat, then a threat has not been noticed. You determine surprise from the perspective of the creature being surprised.

You know the threat is there. You can see them. You didn't know they were a threat, but as soon as they do something that makes it clear that they ARE a threat if you see that happen, then you ARE aware of a threat and initiative is rolled and since you were already aware of the person who was a threat before they attacked, you aren't surprised.

The key is:

"I pull a dagger and attack!" "He pulls out a dagger? Wow. That guy is a threat! Time to roll for initiative, I'd like to draw my sword at attack him first".

In a surprise situation, you don't notice a threat at all until it hits you. If you can spot it/hear it/sense it in some way, even fractions of a second before it happens, then you aren't surprised.

The Sage was clear about this in one of his articles about Stealth. Surprise is a thing that only happens at the beginning of a combat before the people are aware they are attacking each other. You can't hide and stay hidden until the 3rd round of combat and get surprise. You can't pretend to be someone's ally then attack them in the middle of the second round and get surprise. Surprise isn't about "I didn't expect that to happen!" it's about being unaware of the people who are attacking you.

 

[Yunru]

I'm confused. That's exactly what I said it was for. If two people can see each other and one tries to attack the other, you determine who acts first with initiative.

AND if one is surprised, by determining if one viewed the other as a threat.

Combat doesn't traditionally start until one side makes it clear that they are a threat (or something that can be perceived as a threat). People can draw their weapons all they want, they can even run circles around the enemies holding their weapons without any initiative being rolled as long as the other side doesn't perceive that as threatening, but as soon as a player says "I attack", I will roll for initiative to see if the enemy attacks them first.

. Combat stats as so as combat is initiated. If someone draws a weapon, sure that doesn't initiate combat and the enemy has time to do likewise and assess them as a threat. IF someone says "I draw a weapon and attack" that's combat started. No time to draw weapons or reassess threat levels. Roll Initiative, determine surprise, go.

The key factor is that if they pull out weapons, it is likely the enemy will attack THEM, so as soon as one of the NPCs, decides "I'm going to attack this guy, he just pulled out weapons", I declare initiative.

Ah I see, do it's double standards then. The player pulls out a wrapon as part of his "I'm going to attack" and that doesn't start combat, preventing surprise. But the NPC decides "he pulled a weapon, I'm going to attack" and suddenly it's "roll initiative."

This process normally goes:

Player: "While we are sitting around discussing trade agreements, I reach into my boot and pull out my dagger."

DM: "Alright, the person across from you sees you pull a dagger. Roll for initiative."

And this is wrong, wrong, wrong! The person's only pulled a dagger. Unless the "person across from you" goes to attack, combat hasn't started, no initiatives rolled. Either that or the player gets to start the combat and initiative's rolled as he pulls his dagger, not the NPC. This double standards disgusts me.

You know the threat is there. You can see them. You didn't know they were a threat

The start and end statements are in direct opposition. If you don't know they were a threat, they you can't possibly know the threat is there.

The key is:

In a surprise situation, you don't notice a threat at all until it hits you. If you can spot it/hear it/sense it in some way, even fractions of a second before it happens, then you aren't surprised.

Nope, in a surprise situation, you don't notice a threat at all until it attacks you.

The Sage was clear about this in one of his articles about Stealth. Surprise is a thing that only happens at the beginning of a combat before the people are aware they are attacking each other. You can't hide and stay hidden until the 3rd round of combat and get surprise. You can't pretend to be someone's ally then attack them in the middle of the second round and get surprise. Surprise isn't about "I didn't expect that to happen!" it's about being unaware of the people who are attacking you.

Codswallop. Complete, utter, codswallop. The only thing the Sage is clear on is gaining surprise after combat has started. The situation you try to apply it to is occurring before/as combat starts.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Is that ideal? I'd say probably not... but that's the rules.

As a side note, this weird bug in the rules appears to be a side effect of trying to remove "rounds" from the game. There's no reason for the DM to ever keep track of the "beginning of a round" or the "end of a round in 5e. Lair actions happen at Initiative 20, not at the beginning. All spell effects end at the end of a certain turn, not the end of a round.

This appears to have been a design goal.

But they kept the stealth rules about 95% the same from 3.5e/4e D&D where the first round of combat was the "surprise round". As far as I can tell, they realized that they didn't like the idea that there was still a reason to figure out who the "last" person in initiative was, so they just had it end at the end of each person's turn like everything else.

But they didn't realize that it would cause Rogue's Assassinate ability to fail to work against people higher in initiative to them. You can tell from the first couple of answers both Mike Mearls and the Sage gave to this question. It seemed to surprise them (pun intended). But they aren't going to change the rules because of such a small bug in the rules, so we are left with this weird quirk.

I think in most home games it is worth house ruling surprise until the end of the round.

 

[Fast_Jimmy]

I like to compare it directly to the same feature of the other subclass. I've played a Rogue who took Thief as their subclass and I haven't used their feature even once. I suspect both features are meant to be extremely specialized skills for very specific situations.

If you played a Thief and didn't use Fast Hands, I'd question your imagination. You have caltrops, ball bearings, animals traps, acid, alchemist's fire, holy water... all from the PHB and all great to use as a Bonus Action. You can devote entire builds to using this feature in every round of every combat.

Also, if we're going to compare PHB Rogue subclasses... why not compare Assassin to Arcane Trickster? At level 3, while the Assassin gets an ability they can use maybe a handful of times in any campaign, Arcane Trickster gets three cantrips and access to the Wizard spell list, one of the best in the game, while ALSO getting the ability to pick locks and disarm traps from a distance of 30 feet.

How many D&D campaigns involve picking locks + disarming traps and would greatly benefit from an awesomely safe distance for both? I'd say all of them.

Both of them HAVE a use, but they may only work every once in a while. If your entire party happens to roll well, you get a really awesome ability.

Besides, I didn't suggest any game rules changes. That's the way they are currently worded.

If your party rolls well on Stealth, if you roll well on Initiative AND if you don't miss... oh, also, if your party is fully on board with changing their entire encounter approach so that you can bend the campaign to use your class ability, as well. And assuming your DM allows the type of scouting/sneaking ahead that would be required and assuming the encounter would even allow the party to be hidden (a Big Bad, a target you'd MOST want to get an opening-round Crit on, might be fully aware of the party for their planned monologue, as an example).

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Ah I see, do it's double standards then. The player pulls out a wrapon as part of his "I'm going to attack" and that doesn't start combat, preventing surprise. But the NPC decides "he pulled a weapon, I'm going to attack" and suddenly it's "roll initiative."

No, as soon as any side does something threatening initiative is rolled. There's no double standard.

If the PCs say "I pull out a weapon and attack" I say "Ok, roll for initiative"
If the NPCs pull out weapons, I'll say "You see the Orcs pull out weapons and start to move towards you, violence in their eyes, roll for initiative."

Basically, the first thing a side does that is violent that the other side sees or hears starts initiative, but initiative happens before the violent action.

"I walk up to beside them, say 'You are all dead', then pull out a sword" - Alright, they can see you pulling out your sword, they don't like that and want to attack you, roll for initiative before you pull out your sword.
"I reach towards the knife hidden in my boot then I draw it and stab him" - Alright, when you put your hand on the knife, the guy sees your hand reach down and grab the weapon and let's roll for initiative before you pull it out.
"I walk towards him with my sword in hand, I say 'Hey, want to see my sword, it's pretty neat. (The merchant says 'Sure, I might want to buy it'). When I get close enough, I stab him with the sword." - Alright, when you put the sword into your hand that allows you to wield it effectively, the merchant recognizes the change in your sword grip to a combat one and we roll for initiative before you make your attack.

If the enemy can see you when you do something they want to react to or act before then you roll for initiative and whatever action you wanted to do gets paused and they might act before you.

Without this stipulation you'd always have to allow the first person who declared something to go first. And I know some DMs do. If someone yells out "I cast fireball" outside of combat, they allow the fireball to complete before initiative is even rolled because they can't fathom the idea that "I cast fireball" means someone could stab them before the fireball spell even completes.

I just describe the INTENTION to do something and the first half a second of it to the other side:

"The Wizard reaches for his spell component pouch and forms his other hand into a weird arcane gesture! He's about to cast a spell. Roll for initiative!"

"The Orc reaches for his sword, violence in his eyes. Roll for initiative!"

Just because you happen to not be a threat before the first violent action doesn't mean I don't describe the first part of the violent action the same way and roll for initiative normally:

"You are having tea nicely when one of the diplomats reaches into their coat pocket, you see a glint of metal and the unmistakable appearance of a dagger. they are assassins! Roll for initiative!"

The only time that process changes is if you don't see the violent action at all. If someone is completely hidden.

 

[Fast_Jimmy]

As a side note, this weird bug in the rules appears to be a side effect of trying to remove "rounds" from the game. There's no reason for the DM to ever keep track of the "beginning of a round" or the "end of a round in 5e. Lair actions happen at Initiative 20, not at the beginning. All spell effects end at the end of a certain turn, not the end of a round.

This appears to have been a design goal.

But they kept the stealth rules about 95% the same from 3.5e/4e D&D where the first round of combat was the "surprise round". As far as I can tell, they realized that they didn't like the idea that there was still a reason to figure out who the "last" person in initiative was, so they just had it end at the end of each person's turn like everything else.

But they didn't realize that it would cause Rogue's Assassinate ability to fail to work against people higher in initiative to them. You can tell from the first couple of answers both Mike Mearls and the Sage gave to this question. It seemed to surprise them (pun intended). But they aren't going to change the rules because of such a small bug in the rules, so we are left with this weird quirk.

I think in most home games it is worth house ruling surprise until the end of the round.

...okay, well, I think in most home games there should be mandatory beer and Cheetos for the DM, but that's not what the rules are.

Do I think it Assassinate was poorly conceived? Yes. So fix Assassinate... the Surprise rules are fine except in the one outlier case where the value of the entire character build is predicated on when the target loses their Surprised status.

 

[Yunru]

Without this stipulation you'd always have to allow the first person who declared something to go first. And I know some DMs do. If someone yells out "I cast fireball" outside of combat, they allow the fireball to complete before initiative is even rolled because they can't fathom the idea that "I cast fireball" means someone could stab them before the fireball spell even completes.

Not at all. As soon as the player declares they're casting fireball, combat starts. Decide surprise (was anyone aware of a threat?) and roll initiative.

What doesn't happen is "oh they have time to react, roll initiative."

The entire point of surprise lasting only until your turn is that there is no time to reassess threats before your turn.

If the Assassin goes to stab the player one of two things happen:
The player rolls higher on initiative, sees the glint of steel and has time to recover from being surprised.
The player rolls lower on initiative and is caught by surprise.