D&D 5E (2024) How do you handle surprised but won initiative?

[Reynard]

More and more I'm becoming a fan of the group stealth checks that Mercer uses in Critical Roll.

It's a convenient abstraction that makes no sense in the fiction. You just have to be okay with that.

 

[SkidAce]

I am not sure i have ever followed the exact rules in any edition. It is just one of those things I think the fiction itself determines what happens and how. If the ninja is in position and everyone fails to perceive said ninja, it makes no sense for anything to happen before the ninja strikes. If the bandit archers successfully hid in the treeline, they get things going when they loose arrows. Same for the PCs.

Note that barring simultaneous, coordinated missile fire, I tend to only give a single actor that inciting action "for free."

I prefer my ambushes to be "L" shaped and involving simultaneous grazing fire over the area.

 

[Maxperson]

It's a convenient abstraction that makes no sense in the fiction. You just have to be okay with that.

What doesn't make sense about those who know a ton about stealth helping those who don't?

The rogue pointing at where the fighter should step. The rogue using pieces of cloth shoved into parts of the fighter's plate to quiet it down a bit. Tying cloth around the foot of the plate armor. And other ideas that folks of that era would think of that I can't.

It's perfectly reasonable to allow group checks when you think about it. The fighter is still going to have a bad roll most likely, but the mitigation from the rogue makes sense when put into the light of the ideas above.

 

[Maxperson]

I prefer my ambushes to be "L" shaped and involving simultaneous grazing fire over the area.

I'm sure your enemies prefer your ambush to go pear-shaped.

 

[BenjaminPey]

Another option would be to not just give the defender Disadvantage, but also the attacker Advantage. If they lose at that point, then it safe to say that the entire plan has gone off FUBAR from the start.

If the attacker is hidden, he does have advantage on the initiative roll.
Plus, they will have advantage on their attack, and anyone who tries to attack them will have disadvantage:

(While you have the Invisible condition, you experience the following effects.
Surprise. If you're Invisible when you roll Initiative, you have Advantage on the roll. [...]
Attacks Affected. Attack rolls against you have Disadvantage, and your attack rolls have Advantage. If a creature can somehow see you, you don't gain this benefit against that creature.)


All in all, I'm quite happy with this rule, even for an ambush. Combining advantage for the ambushers with disadvantage for the ambushees, the majority of the ambushers will act before their preys, with advantage. The couple of defenders who will get to act first wil have disadvantage on their attacks and won't even know where/who to attack. Still quite deadly, but not "you lose two turns, bam you're dead" deadly.

 

[Reynard]

What doesn't make sense about those who know a ton about stealth helping those who don't?

The rogue pointing at where the fighter should step. The rogue using pieces of cloth shoved into parts of the fighter's plate to quiet it down a bit. Tying cloth around the foot of the plate armor. And other ideas that folks of that era would think of that I can't.

It's perfectly reasonable to allow group checks when you think about it. The fighter is still going to have a bad roll most likely, but the mitigation from the rogue makes sense when put into the light of the ideas above.

Except that a single person in a group of any size making noise would ruin it for everyone. You can coach the barbarian how to shut up, but when the big luck steps on a branch, you are all caught.

 

[el-remmen]

I went in the other direction and in my games attacks against surprised creatures are made with Advantage (though only for the first round).

(And in my experience while some characters might get two rounds of actions before the surprised get to act, generally most don’t).

 

[doctorbadwolf]

@mearls has a neat approach in his Moldvay project, where he's given the ranger the ability to grant their Stealth result to allies.

I thought it was an interesting idea to help avoid the scenario you're referring to, is why I bring it up.

Imo that is a solid basis of a support pillar of the ranger class, which it should have more strongly.

Survival, stealth, athletics, maybe. Grant a bonus equal to your wisdom (letting allies use your check is too good IMO.

 

[Maxperson]

Except that a single person in a group of any size making noise would ruin it for everyone. You can coach the barbarian how to shut up, but when the big luck steps on a branch, you are all caught.

Yep, which is why a failed group check means someone made enough noise. You can't ignore that people can aid others in being quieter than they otherwise would be. It's a fact that it can be done. Will it? That's what the check is for.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I mean sure. You can do group stealth checks, too, which can mitigate the clankies. But then, why What's the point?

I don't mean that dismissively. I think it is worth thinking about what we are doing and what we are trying to achieve and how the system we choose, 2014 or 2024 or whatever, satisfies that.

One aspect I guess is worth differentiating is "surprise" versus "ambush." Checking for suprise in a sort of old school way makes sense when you run into that random encounter. 5E 2024 works for me there: who was unaware? Roll initiative at disadvantage,

Ambushes are a different thing and sort of break rules of combat happening only in combat rounds. An ambush is a readied action but you need a reaction to do it, and you don't have reactions (as far as we can tell) until initiative is rolled. That's why I feel like the fiction has to rule around the ambush -- it is inherently in a nebulous space between 2 game modes (exploration and combat).

Well, in ambush you just use those reactions the moment initiative has been rolled and round 1 starts. Then you do not have a reaction that round bc you used it, and combot goes ahead as normal.

I kinda like how Solasta does it, too, and i think it works even better with the 2024 rules. The person who takes that hidden shot simply goes first. That is it. They do not roll initiative, because they just go first regardless. That way, that initialising attack pops off, the attacker has the rest of their turn, and then initiative rolls on from there.