D&D 5E (2024) How do you handle surprised but won initiative?

[Lanefan]

Irrelevant. We are not discussing PC decisions to make fights harder foe themselves. That idea is an invention of your mind. No one but you ever said anything like that.

The post I was replying to when I first brought this up had as its main point somethng to the effect that trivialized combats aren't fun and so the game has moved to make it much harder to trivialize them, part of said movement being the softening of surprise benefits.

To me, this sounded like the game wants players to ignore tactical advantage and character self-preservation in favour of "cinematic" combats, which from the point of view of the characters themselves seems bag-o'-hammers dumb.

Non sequitor. The heck are you even talking about? Are you replying to the wrong post?

Not at all. If the PCs can set up a situation that's so one-sided that the combat's not even worth playing out (the point being made in the post I quoted) then so can the PCs' opponents. As the PCs losing a fight without it being played out wouldn't be good for the game, the flip side is that the so-called trivial combats that the PCs would normally win should (and IMO must) also be played out.

That, and I've on numerous occasions seen things go horribly wrong for parties even in the most trivial of combats. Dice can be stern masters sometimes.

Although, in fact, people do skip conbat when the PCs have no vhance of success. It is just objectively poor DMing to intentionally create TPK situations with no chance to avoid them. Usually those situations involve capture or the like, and while some players have always (this is not new) disliked that sort of "railroading" it has always been and will always be part of the game for many groups.

The most famous example of this is the end combat in A3 Aerie of the Slave Lords, where the PCs are supposed to be captured in order to set up A4. The module takes it as a fait accompli that the PCs will lose and be captured.

When I ran A3 I ran this combat in full, and I'm glad I did; of a party of (I think) 8 characters, three or four escaped and fled while the rest got captured. From there, I ran it split-party for the rest of that adventure where half the party was operating outside the slavers' dungeon and the rest were operating inside it.

Not in dnd lol

It's less likely in 5e than older editions, to be sure, but a trivial combat going sideways can still happen. A party of 8th-level characters vs lowly bandits can still get hammered if the PCs all roll 1s and the bandits hit 20s every time; and disallowing the chance for that to occur, no matter how remote that chance may be, IMO defeats the purpose of using dice in the first place.

 

[Lanefan]

Sure. That's the key. Without slowing things down. Combat is already slow.

I will roll individual initiatives unless there are large numbers of monsters. Even then I tend to roll them in batches, rather than just once for a side. Like if there are 50 orcs in the fight, I'll roll for batches of 10, rather than just let 50 orcs go on a single number. What I'm not going to do is roll initiative 50 times every round and do them separately. My players would roll initiative to see which one gets to punch me first.

Sure, if there's loads of opponents I'll batch them together somewhat, like you say. The batches still re-roll each round, however.

But it's a thing on the player side as well: one of my players loves summoning monsters, sometmes repeatedly, into any significant fight. Once they join the fray each of those monsters gets its own initiative. I've once or twice seen him with as many as two dozen initiative d6s on the table in front of him...

 

[Lanefan]

1st
Advantage on initiative vs disadvantage usually allows the ambusher to go first.

2nd
What you say in 2. If someone is faster, they can do what they want. Usually a perception check negates the invisible condition from hiding at least.
The thing that tipps the defenders off might be an animal sound or the lack thereof. It might just be the tingling on the neck. It does not have to be something specific.
And if they can't decide on an action. I would just assume they dodge like companions that have no orders.

Even if your neck is tingling and your spidey senses are on full alert, how can you effectively dodge something you don't see coming?

 

[aco175]

Is it a problem to just tell the players that a monster is jumping out to attack and roll initiative. Also roll a Perception check DC15 or whatever the Stealth roll was and if you fail you are surprised and roll initiative with disadvantage.

This gives the reason why everyone is rolling initiative and the condition you could be surprised. I do not have issues telling the players information

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Even if your neck is tingling and your spidey senses are on full alert, how can you effectively dodge something you don't see coming?

Dodge action does not do what you think it does.

Dodge action gives anyone attacking you disadvantage. And you get advantage on dex saves.
So it just makes you ready to duck away for whatever comes.