How do you handle time with item creation?
- Thread starter Sithobi1
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Li Shenron
Legend
beaver1024 said:
(for my personal taste) that you end up having 20th level teenagers when the rest of the world is mostly commoners
beaver1024
First Post
Delemental said:
I was refering to big unwritten assumptions in the game. The designers assume that the cleric in the iconic party is destined to waste their spells to heal and buff the party, essentially relagating them to a support only role. Thus to compensate, the cleric is given an obscene amount of power.
Similarly with downtime, there is a big unwritten assumptions that somehow the DM and the players will know that there is meant to be downtime so that the wizard can exercise their class abilities. Hence wizards got big nerfs in their abilities to compensate.
Neither of these assumptions are clearly stated anywhere and more importantly neither of these assumptions are generally true.
beaver1024
First Post
Li Shenron said:
If I may be so bold as to ask, what is wrong with that? Mythology is full of stories of child prodigies, young adults raised to greatness at an early age etc etc.
Additionally where does it state that you have to start adventuring as a young adult? Why not at sometime later in life? Where does it state that you have to start at level 1 for that matter?
As much as there a justifiable RP reasons to have downtime, there are equally compelling RP reasons not to have downtime. Since 99% of the core classes are perfectly happy without downtime, why do we need downtime then?
Crothian said:
If this is the answer then why the hell are these massive assumptions isn't stated in the PHB or the DMG? Making such huge assumptions about players' and DMs' campaign styles and balancing abilities accordingly is bad design and testing at best and sheer incompetance at worst.
Ravellion
serves Gnome Master
4 out of 11 = 99%? (7 out of 11 core classes have spells. And yes, I have seen paladins take craft feats).beaver1024 said:
Right.
RP reasons for downtime or lack of it are, frankly, completely irrelevant. As the rules as written obviously imply the availability of downtime. The Crafting feats and skills are available for PCs in the PHB. The time it takes to craft is clearly stated. If left unusable, every such feat is wasted, reducing the amount of feats that character has available by as much as 1/7th (and if your campaign is still mid level, more likely something along the lines of 1/4th). Clearly this cannot be the intention of the rules ("take this! waste a feat!").
To give an overstated example on why such abilities should be usuable, I could perfectly envision a campaign where for RP reasons the party will never face evil opponents. It is obvious that this would make the paladin a weak part member. The RAW simply imply certain things about your campaign. You will be fighting evil, you will be fighting creatures susceptable to sneak attacks, and you will have downtime to craft items.
If you can envision a campaign where RP reasons alter any of this, that's perfectly okay. But be fully aware that you are tinkering with the rules far more than someone introducing a few new spells and feats.
Rav
Shin Okada
Explorer
beaver1024 said:
By itself, nothing is wrong at all. My playgroup is planning to run d20 Sorcery tetralogy when the fourth book is published. That campaign will not give PCs downtime.
But it is not a typical environment for PCs. As already said by many, it makes craft skills and item creation feats almost useless. So if a campaign is likely to take that way, a DM should better announce it before players create their characters (or choose feats and skills when level-up).
Li Shenron
Legend
beaver1024 said:
That's why I said it's my personal taste only. I just prefer characters who slowly develop in time, from talented young to powerful adults or elders. We very often start at level higher than 1st, and we very often start at mature age already.
It's ok to have child prodigies, but IMXP the problem is always in the eyes of the gamers. A 1st level Wizard is already quite a prodigy compared to the large majority of people who will never get past the 1st level of Commoner and has an average 10 in all stats.
As a DM I have my own practical problems if too soon I have to run very high level adventures (much more difficult for me), and I it's not fun for me to ask for retirement of 20 year-old characters.
Li Shenron
Legend
Ravellion said:
At this purpose I want to mention that IMHO the trend of the rules is becoming exactly to forget about downtime. I don't know if others have noticed this changes by 3.5, but two examples come to my mind:
- Identify and Analyze Dweomer -
These 2 spells used to basically require a day off, with the Wizard going back home with the found magic item and only later come up with... "I've found how this works!". In 3.5 they are changed to make item identification feasible on the fly, and this is a wanted change.
- Item Creation Feats -
They use to require consecutive days spent with no exceptions, so you could make an item only between 2 adventures. In long adventures (lots of levels in a short time frame) use of these was impossible, so in 3.5 it's been change that you work a few days and resume later, leaving only the duty of counting the total number of days spent.
(you can probably find other changes along this idea...)
Then consider UA's "Craft Points" variant which is IMHO the ultimate metagaming rule to avoid bothering about the fact that characters have a life which doesn't end at the dungeon's exit. With this variant you just spend points on the fly wherever you are and retroactively assume you've been working on the item for whatever time.
I don't mean to say these are bad changes (although I don't like how the Craft Points variant is detached from reality), just that they are gearing towards the cinematic aspects of the game, while IMO the RPG is best when it's the union of the short-term cinematic (on-adventures) and the long-term logistic (off-adventures) aspects.
Crothian
First Post
beaver1024 said:
It is not the Answer, it is an answer. And because all games make assumptions in them. They can't be expected to write up everything about the game in the books that would create a lot of wasted space because most people don't need the inforation. And it is not that huge an assumption. And not bad design or any of those other insults you are throwing around with no basis.
It doesn't work in your game, so what? Then change it. Don't have down time. Make surte the playters know that so they don't waste feats on item creation and other time consuming activities since they won't have the time to do it. Just like if you are running a land based camapgin tell thePCs so they don't make pirates and sea elves.
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