How do you know if you are powergaming?

[Oryan77]

I have always thought of "optimizing" and "powergaming" as two different things:

Optimizing to me always meant using the rules legitimately and somewhat straight forward to make the best build ever.

Powergaming to me always meant using the rules any way you can to achieve the best build ever regardless of how absurd the build is. Interpreting the rules in your favor, ignoring logic, and finding loopholes are things that I imagine makes you a powergamer rather than an optimizer.

But are these two things really the same thing since the end goal is to simply make the PC as invincible as possible?

If an optimized PC and a powergamed PC both ended up in a game under a DM who was pretty low-key and simply ran normal NPCs or monsters straight from published books, it doesn't seem to make a difference which PC has the better build if both PCs still greatly outrank a modestly built NPC.

If they are different, how do you know which category you fall under? Does creating a PC based on the best build you find in the optimization forums still make you a powergamer? If not, how do you know you're powergaming and not just optimizing? I see all kinds of optimizing forums and threads, but I've never noticed any threads or posts specifically on how to "powergame" a PC. As popular as the term "powergaming" is, I would think these forums would exist if it is different from optimizing. Or have I just not been to the right forums for powergaming?

 

[Greg K]

To me powergaming and optimizing are two different things.

As I have written in other threads, to me, powergaming is the player playing primarily for power or what they think is power as defined in the game.. For this definition with D&D, a player would be a power gamer if their primary focus for playing is on on cool powers, bonuses to hit and/or damage output, treasure acquisition (which grants items that increase power by giving bonuses or cool powers) and/or leveling (which gives you more power (bonuses and powers) and the ability to acquire more power (treasures and further level acquisition)).
Since the above definition is based upon player focus/perception, optimization and min-maxing are not a necessary components of powergaming.

Optimization, to me is on a separate axis. It is about prioritizing to best meet a concept. So as soon as one begins prioritizing ability scores, points, or whatever, they are engaging in some degree of optimization. It is also on a continuum so there are different degrees of optimization. When you start passing a subjective threshold and you are an optimizer.

Many powergamers just also happen to engage in optimization. Since powergaming is about focusing on power or the highest bonuses, they tend towards the extremes and try to squeeze the biggest bonuses. This why optimizer and powergamer are, in my opinion associated with one another.

Minmaxing is an extreme form of optimizatioin in which the player tries to minimize weaknesses and maximize strengths. Treating things as dump stats or ignoring them, because the DM probably will not put the player in a situation to use it or the player can avoid relevant situations and then using the resources elsewhere is an example of minmaxing in DND. In other games, putting everything into the biggest power or attack and using mental powers or clairvoyance while the character remains in a headquarters out of harms way would be minmaxing (and powergaming).



Again, that is my take shared from my gaming circles over the years.

I have always thought of "optimizing" and "powergaming" as two different things:

Optimizing to me always meant using the rules legitimately and somewhat straight forward to make the best build ever.

Powergaming to me always meant using the rules any way you can to achieve the best build ever regardless of how absurd the build is. Interpreting the rules in your favor, ignoring logic, and finding loopholes are things that I imagine makes you a powergamer rather than an optimizer.

But are these two things really the same thing since the end goal is to simply make the PC as invincible as possible?

If an optimized PC and a powergamed PC both ended up in a game under a DM who was pretty low-key and simply ran normal NPCs or monsters straight from published books, it doesn't seem to make a difference which PC has the better build if both PCs still greatly outrank a modestly built NPC.

If they are different, how do you know which category you fall under? Does creating a PC based on the best build you find in the optimization forums still make you a powergamer? If not, how do you know you're powergaming and not just optimizing? I see all kinds of optimizing forums and threads, but I've never noticed any threads or posts specifically on how to "powergame" a PC. As popular as the term "powergaming" is, I would think these forums would exist if it is different from optimizing. Or have I just not been to the right forums for powergaming?

 

[steenan]

The way I understand these terms, they describe two separate things that sometimes coincide, but definitely don't have to.

Powergaming is mostly about motivation. It's about getting satisfaction from the feeling of being invincible, of steamrolling the opposition, of always getting your way. Of having power and being in control.
While it's possible for powergaming to not be disruptive (it requires some conscious effort on the player's part), it's always self-centered. If one wants to force their will on the environment, they won't be interested in things that require cooperation and compromise.
A powergamer will be frustrated if some limitations put on their character make the character vulnerable. Depending on their level of buy-in and integrity, they will suffer, leave the game or start cheating.

Optimization, in itself, is similar to tinkering. It's taking various things and checking what you can build from them. It can be as disruptive as powergaming (and can be easily mistaken as powergaming) if the group lacks communication. But if communicated clearly, it becomes helpful, rather than dangerous.
Optimizers typically like limitations, as long as they are clear and consistent. If you can do everything, there's no place for optimization. Optimization is taking what's available and making the best use of it. Sometimes, the greatest fun is in taking something that everyone treats as useless and making it shine.
Optimizers, as opposed to powergamers, can also be group-oriented. They can help others optimize their characters while following their character concepts. They may build multi-character combos. They often play very effective support characters (because they can make it fun).

 

[delericho]

I have always thought of "optimizing" and "powergaming" as two different things:

Optimizing to me always meant using the rules legitimately and somewhat straight forward to make the best build ever.

Powergaming to me always meant using the rules any way you can to achieve the best build ever regardless of how absurd the build is.

Fair enough. I use different definitions:

The Optimiser is the player who wishes to use the rules to build the character who best fits his goal. "I want to be the best archer possible", or "I want to be a fire-mage", or whatever. That frequently, but not necessarily always, is about power - the player could, in theory, want to be the best basket-weaver in the game, and that would still be optimisation.

The Power-gamer, by contrast, is the player for whom the game is all about power. He's almost certainly an optimiser, since that's the best way towards power, but his goal isn't to build the best character to embody a concept; it's to find the most powerful build. If that's CoDzilla, that's what he'll build. If some new rules module comes out and changes the balance, he'll build something else. He has no interest in personality, or story, or... it's purely about power. Hence the name.

(Of course, both of those are pretty extreme examples. I suspect there's at least a little of both the optimiser and the power-gamer in most if not all of us - after all, if given the choice between two characters, one of whom is slightly better than the other without any corresponding drawbacks, how many of us would refuse?)

I have a different name for the player who (knowingly) bends the rules, selectively reads (or interprets) the rules, or outright breaks the rules: The Cheat.

But are these two things really the same thing since the end goal is to simply make the PC as invincible as possible?

If an optimized PC and a powergamed PC both ended up in a game under a DM who was pretty low-key and simply ran normal NPCs or monsters straight from published books, it doesn't seem to make a difference which PC has the better build if both PCs still greatly outrank a modestly built NPC.

If they are different, how do you know which category you fall under?

Speak to your DM, and the other players. If they're happy with what you're doing, all is well. If, however, your actions are causing problems at the table, then you need to change your behaviour. And that applies even if your behaviour would be entirely reasonable at some other table.

You should aim to bring enough fun to the table for yourself and one other person. That way, if someone has an off night, others can pick up the slack. And if everyone brings an excess, the game just sings.

 

[MrBigUK]

If you have to ask whether you're power gaming or not, then you are. Whether that's a problem or not is down to the players and GM in your game. If you're all having fun then it's all good. If you're dominating play and leaving other pc's outclassed against encounters set to match your character's power level then tone it down a bit and everybody enjoys themselves. If the group can't agree on this then problems are sure to arise. We do this for fun. Enjoy what you enjoy.

 

[Jhaelen]

Optimizing to me always meant using the rules legitimately and somewhat straight forward to make the best build ever.

Powergaming to me always meant using the rules any way you can to achieve the best build ever regardless of how absurd the build is. Interpreting the rules in your favor, ignoring logic, and finding loopholes are things that I imagine makes you a powergamer rather than an optimizer.

In my understanding all of these are properties of a player I'd call an 'Optimizer'. Imho, all an 'Optimizer' cares about is the optimization itself, he's not actually driven by a quest for power in actually playing the character. It's more of a theoretical goal.

Powergaming is mostly about motivation. It's about getting satisfaction from the feeling of being invincible, of steamrolling the opposition, of always getting your way. Of having power and being in control.

I agree.

Optimizers typically like limitations, as long as they are clear and consistent. If you can do everything, there's no place for optimization. Optimization is taking what's available and making the best use of it. Sometimes, the greatest fun is in taking something that everyone treats as useless and making it shine.
Optimizers, as opposed to powergamers, can also be group-oriented. They can help others optimize their characters while following their character concepts. They may build multi-character combos. They often play very effective support characters (because they can make it fun).

Well, that's a more positive view of optimizers than mine, but it's still a fitting description.

Personally, I don't consider myself either a powergamer or an optimizer, but I do care a lot about having an _effective_ character and enjoy advancing and growing in power. I refrain from min-maxing and refuse to visit sites like the CO boards over at WotCs. I don't simply pick every character option that would increase my pc's power, I only pick those that make sense in the context of my character. I also have a particular dislike for pure 'math' feats. Instead I look for flavourful feats that provide similar but more situational bonuses. So, I'm trying to strike a balance. Part of the reason is that I'm rarely interested in optimizing a single aspect of my character. I'm more interested in a well-rounded character than can contribute in a meaningful way, no matter the situation.

 

[Janx]

In my understanding all of these are properties of a player I'd call an 'Optimizer'. Imho, all an 'Optimizer' cares about is the optimization itself, he's not actually driven by a quest for power in actually playing the character. It's more of a theoretical goal.

I generally concur.

I think we're mired in semantics and trying to make things not sound as bad.

In my experience, when somebody complains about a player, and they use the phrase power-gamer, they often ascribe traits that the OP might categorize as Optimization.

I don't think I've ever heard "power gamer" used to describe a PC seeking to rule the world. it's always as a perjorative for somebody who has maximized their PCs performance through design and equipment. At the extreme ends it involves abusing and mis-interpreting rules.

So yeah, Optimizing and power gaming are pretty much the same thing, albeit at degrees of severity.

 

[Oryan77]

I forgot about the term "min-maxing". Isn't a min-maxer simply just an optimizer?

I was thinking about these terms recently when I was thinking back about how I was trying to powergame a PC last year in a new game where the DM encouraged powergaming. I had never done it before, and I don't consider myself all that good at it, but it was fun & interesting trying to make my 3.5e rogue be as good as possible when compared to the tier 1 classes. That was the first time I ever visited any optimization forums.

Then I started thinking about what I was doing and compared it to what I've seen optimizers in my game doing. I had referred to my actions last year as "powergaming" since I was trying to make my build "invincible". But I was still very into roleplaying the character and I really enjoyed building character rather than simply building a character. Mostly what I did was get build ideas from the optimization forums and use that information and my own research to build a strong rogue. We (including the DM) still referred to it as powergaming.

But that is all the optimizers do in my own game. They go to the same forums, use the builds suggested in the threads, do their own research to mix in some of their own build ideas, and then they are good to go. Yet, I never call them powergamers, I call them min-maxers or optimizers.

So was I actually powergaming in the game last year? Or was I just min-maxing (optimizing)? The DM knew his rules very well and was a really bright guy. He's the sort that would know all of the D&D terms and labels that people use. So he wasn't saying that we were simply optimizing. As far as we were all concerned, we were all powergaming and he was helping us do it.

Comparing what we did in that game to what my players have done in my game, it seems no different (and I never really thought about that until now). That's why I started wondering if optimizing and powergaming are really just the same exact thing. I thought I was powergaming even though I was still roleplaying. But maybe I wasn't powergaming?

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

You might be a powergamer if ...

... you've made 20 levels of character choices before your first level character has gone on his first adventure.

... you refer to a player character as a "build".

... you've ever changed characters because you found a new way to get a +1 bonus.

... you arrive at a game and announce you have a new character, and the DM breaks into tears.

... your first level character doesn't face kobolds and goblins, he faces armies ... and wins!

... Chuck Norris asks your character for pointers.

... you refer to the "Intercontinental Union of Disgusting Characters" for pointers.

... you've ever used a venomous dinosaur as an animal companion.

... you regard the cleric class as "weak, but a good starting point."

... you measure you armor class on a logarithmic scale.

... you've ever had to buy a pound of dice from Chessex to have enough damage dice.

 

[howandwhy99]

I agree optimization is about character builds. The optimizing boards and threads are all about character creation.

Powergaming is different. Powergaming is about playing the game to win ...at least according to your own definitions. Power gaming could be about hunting down XP, treasure hoarding, total kills, or just about about any other goal-oriented activity where you optimize your playing to achieve it.